Topic: Making Undead: Animate vs. Create

[Zhaleskra]

Animate and Create Undead are similar spells. In the first, you animate a corpse that has been dead a day or less and it's completely under your command (and count as Class I for Turn Undead and don't get RR). The base for the second is that they can have been dead for up to a week, and unless controlled, even Class I undead attack the nearest living thing. Because Skeletons and Zombies are classified as nearly mindless, I don't really understand why they would, unless it's a nod to zombie movies, it's somehow instinctual ("I should not be"?), or I missed something about Create Undead creating an unnatural evil life force. For Class II and above, I'm somewhat fine with this, it really depends on the monster.

Maybe I'll house rule that Skeletons and Zombies don't just blindly attack things. I'll read what your opinions are before I make that call though.

[jdale]

I think it reflects an idea that necromancy is tapping into a power that is inherently evil, e.g. Unlife. It is not merely an animated body, like a puppet on strings, but you have taken some of this power from beyond and put it in the vessel. The vessel then acts according to the nature of the power.

If you want necromancy to be an ok thing in your world, it would make sense to change it (although it makes the spell safer and thus more powerful). If you want necromancy to be evil, it's part of that structure.

Personally I think it's useful to have things that are truly evil in a fantasy setting. You'll still get plenty of gray areas if you want them, but true evil has its place as well. And true evil shouldn't be evil merely because all the NPCs say so, it should be fundamental to how some things work.

[Zhaleskra]

I think it reflects an idea that necromancy is tapping into a power that is inherently evil, e.g. Unlife. It is not merely an animated body, like a puppet on strings, but you have taken some of this power from beyond and put it in the vessel. The vessel then acts according to the nature of the power.

Ah, the old negative energy is evil argument. Concepts of morality aside, I don't like the idea of energy being either negative or positive: it just is. Even having said that, in my opinion it is the intent behind the energy that makes it positive or negative.

Also, I'm a little bit emotionally invested in this, as I had a 2nd Edition AD&D Necromancer who started as Chaotic Neutral and eventually became Chaotic Good. Yes, she does use Animate Dead. I also liked a line from an optional book, The Complete Book of Necromancers (a DM splat book), that goes something like "animating a corpse to carry your luggage is not evil". I am well aware that necromancers are traditionally presented as villains.

Now the idea of tapping into an evil power: perhaps Create gets the attention of an evil life hating spirit that has to be controlled to work for the necromancer. CBoN really sold me on the shades of gray in necromancy.

[jdale]

In my opinion, just putting "energy" in a corpse will not animate it. Energy will perhaps make it warmer. Negative energy will make it colder. You need to put something more like spirit in a corpse. Like spirit, but also entirely different from spirit, since spirit resides in a living body and here you need something that will reside in a body that is unreceptive to such a spirit. A thing that is the opposite of spirit, but still has its own willfulness.

Anyway...  as I said, I think it's a setting choice and you can pick what you want for your setting. I'm currently playing in a game where necromancy is considered a-okay. It's not what I would choose for my own game though.

[Zhaleskra]

It really comes down to campaign flavor for me. Dark Fantasy? I'm down with clear cut black & white morality. More generic? I'm more of a shades of gray guy, with points of black and white existing, but being very small. And even then more black wells than white ones. Clear cut evil is easier to pinpoint than clear cut good in a gray world.

[Zut]

Reanimate a corpse to carry luggages?... Yes, the corpse isn't doing anything evil, but the mere fact of reanimating a dead body is a blasphemy in most cultures. After all, it was a living person before, it's not a simple object or a tool.

I could imagine a culture that punishes criminals with a "reanimate after death" sentence: when you die, a necromancer reanimates the body for years of services to the community. Not a pretty sight for outsiders...

[Thom @ ICE]

The key difference between the two spells is that Animate Dead is simply the ability to tap into the creature's muscle memory and guide the activities of the creature.  It is nothing more than a puppet and if the caster breaks concentration it freezes in place (I'd even go so far as to have it collapse to the ground).

The Create Undead is actually bringing an undead life force into the creature and having it act independently.  If it fits your setting to have it not attack that's fine.  I believe the concept for the auto-attack is to have them do something.... If you spent 15PP to create a single zombie creature and then had to also do a Control Undead and concentrate then your first 15PP would be a lot of PP for little benefit on it's own.

By the way - I've got CBoN, though I haven't looked at it in quite some time.   

[Zhaleskra]

The range difference is probably important too. Animate: 100 feet. Create: 10 feet. Nearest living thing in Create? Most likely you. The meat/bone puppet vs. somewhat intelligent undead was a good explanation. Yeah, creating undead and having it just stand there waiting for orders does seem like a waste of power points.

@Zut, regarding the cultural blasphemy more, my Necromancer would probably tell you to stop being wasteful. His/her soul has already departed, (s)he's not using it any more. She's kind of an "I don't care what you think of my art" personality and will openly introduce herself as a necromancer.

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

The distinction between Animate Dead and Create Dead is the rotting corpse puppet vs "sentient" (or at least an independent lifeforce/ spirit/mind) creature.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Zhaleskra]

The distinction between Animate Dead and Create Dead is the rotting corpse puppet vs "sentient" (or at least an independent lifeforce/ spirit/mind) creature.

That could make things weirder.
Peasant sees Cleric moving dead body like a puppet with Cleric controlling it. Same peasant then sees created undead moving on their own (apparently). Assuming this peasant is for some reason not scared of either situation, I think I'd put my 2 coppers on him finding the first more disturbing.