Author Topic: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook  (Read 16973 times)

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Offline Zhaleskra

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2011, 09:18:50 AM »
Then it seems like just a semantics issue. While the charts are called Critical Tables, there are results that are "just" hits.

Also, I see what I missed, and it wasn't what I thought it was.
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2011, 09:27:38 AM »
Zhaleskra, this misunderstanding is probably a result of the different semantics used in HARP and Rolemaster for the "Criticals" or "Critical Tables". While RM has a two-roll attack resolution and a distinction between Attack Tables and Critical Tables, HARP uses only the "Critical Tables", which in HARP are a mix of the Attack and Critical Tables which RM uses.

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2011, 11:15:21 AM »
I haven't had the years with HARP combat to see how it compares, but I must admit I always liked the "generic damage (hits) is only really dangerous when it starts to add up, critical damage tends to be a game changer" distinction that RM made.

On the other hand, I've played few enough other systems that I won't claim to know how well others handle that either.
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Offline Zhaleskra

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2011, 11:20:42 AM »
Despite the claims to the contrary, I like HARP's distinction as "Rolemaster Lite". What does that make HARP Lite then? Diet Rolemaster Lite?
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2011, 12:25:02 PM »
I've told more than one person that HARP appears to be what I think RM1 was attempting to be. Simple, robust, modular, elegant. As if somewhere in the design team, someone remembered the old saying about engineering: Perfection isn't when there's nothing left to add, but when there's nothing left to take away. That doesn't mean you try to strip the granularity and individualism out of it, it means you don't gild lilies even a little bit.

If that makes people call it "_____ Lite", as if that's a point against it... fine with me, I count that as a feature, not a bug. On the other hand, if you base something you hope to sell to the masses on my tastes, you're probably a fool who will die in poverty.

 :o
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Offline Mando

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2011, 01:32:38 PM »
Our HARP most wanted tweaks:

- Flat DPs on levelling, not based on stats, like: 40 + (level * 2)

- Have a real look at character advancement beyond 12th level. Give the players more options to spend their (many) DPs. By example : advanced skills, needing a minimum number of skill ranks, more talents, etc. Something beyond multi-classing.

- Extend the combat tables in the basic book so that characters with huge bonuses don't have to reach the top end of the table nearly anytime. And give us an official rule on how to deal with this issue.

- Make a very simple combat system in the rule book, and then some additionnal PDFs or extensions to use more sophisticated ones. This has been done, but it was never complete, like by example spells modifications when you change armor rules, or healing options if you go with a more detailed wound system.

- Remove over complicated things from the core, like armor by the piece. Make it an option in the Options book.

- Make attack spells more interesting, with less specific rules and better integration of the scaling options.

- Publish a spell compendium online tool where I can have all spells in one place, and be able to filter by spheres and professions. And print my spell book.

- Unification of the resolution systems is required too, an issue mostly appearing in the combat actions & combat styles: sometimes you add ranks, sometimes stat bonus, sometimes something else. It's over-complicated.

- The actual way of handling a pure stat based roll is crap (1d100 + (stat bonus * 2)). Can't reach 101 most of the time, it's pure luck. Doesn't work. Find something else :)

- Give us ways to handle all specific damages (stuns, bleeds, penalties, OB-DB choices, etc.) for large scale combat (5-6 players vs 5-6 NPCs is a nightmare). Computer tools, simplification of the rules?

- Remove some skills that are not really useful or regroup some of them. The amount of skills needed to search, crop, prepare plants and to make potions is too high, by example, and some of them are confusingly identical.

- Keep options and non-core rules in a separate book, but try to give advice on the impact they will have on the game, and include all necessary changes needed to use them.


Overall, I liked HARP a lot, and had a lot of fun with it. I even tried to make a version that took many of the above issues into account (plus middle earth specifics, as it's the setting I am using with HARP). But I stopped after many months of work, as I am not a game designer and failed to adress all these issues in an elegant manner. I was at the same time translating and trying to use Arms Law combat system, and drowned... Maybe too much at the same time.

My players now want much more simple systems, as they don't have time anymore to read hundreds of pages of an RPG book to understand how the system works and how to develop their characters.
To end this long topic, and just to let you know, we're playing Fudge/Fate/Legends of Anglerre at the moment...

Excuse my poor english, I wanted to share but had little time to do so.
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Offline Aaron

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2011, 07:55:27 AM »
I dont really see multidute of skills as bad thing, or some being very close together. Making an necklace could be Craft(Goldsmithing)-easy, but craft(armorsmithing)-hard, as armorsmiths are not really specialized to making jevellery. Or making a basic bow could be craft(bowmaking)-easy, but craft(carpentry)-hard. Confusion only arises when one assumes there is one and only one skill for each given task.

To me, even the ammount of skills RM has is no problem. By assuming only one skill for task leads to oversimplification (you cant learn to be armosmith, if you want to. Or further, mining and statue making woudl have to be condensed to one skill... Sure mining is not very close to making statues, but surely one with that knoweledge of rock can make an statue. Not very easily, and not very good one, but still).

For that matter, i even allow my players to make up their own skills. You want to have craft(elvish wine bottle making). Sure, but the further away the task is from you specialty, the harder it will be. On the other hand, just having glassworking allows pracically making more different things, but not nearly as well.
If any spell can be made into potion, how does fireball potion work when someone drinks it?:D

Offline Zhaleskra

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2011, 08:16:10 AM »
I don't think being seen as a "lite" version of something familiar is a bad thing . . . unless you're talking about beers that have pathetic alcohol per volume to begin with.

I also don't see the skill resolution as that complicated. There's a nice, very short table, with all of it.

What might be good, is to reiterate what kind of resistance roll you make against a spell based on the profession casting it, by the spell description. That's one case where I wouldn't see repetition as annoying.
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2011, 09:09:43 AM »
Aaron, I also don't see a lot of skills as a problem. But from earlier discussions here in the forums (and also a German RM forum) I have the impression that new players are sometimes frightened off by a large number of skills. It looks like in those cases they find it hard to pick the skills that would be important for the character they have in mind and want to create via the HARP / RM system. So having a smaller number of "core" skills plus some additional "optional" skills might be a way to go.

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2011, 11:16:20 AM »
I have the impression that new players are sometimes frightened off by a large number of skills.

Yeah, that. The 3 1/2 page wall of skill cost matrix in the back of RoCo II was intimidating to the newbies.
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Offline Ryhope Wood

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2011, 03:26:52 AM »
As for the gryx... it is generally just to show a unique race concept, rather than the standard regurgitated races.  I personally am not a big fan of them but I understand why they were originally included.

It might be worth it to have several examples of "unique race concept", with the reminder that most worlds are unlikely to support more than one or two. Especially if it takes you through the race creation process, showing the new GM the balancing act involved and why it's important.

I really like this idea.  More examples of how HARP can be used as a toolkit please.  Aside from systems that build from the ground-up like GURPS and HERO (and take a lot of work), I think HARP is one of the most transparent magic systems around.  If this transparency could be explicitly stated for other aspects such as races, talents, and professions then I think I would make HARP my go-to system ...

I also agree with the suggestions that an option to bolt-on Arms Law would be great but I guess that need not go in the core book.

Offline MidKnight

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2011, 07:18:56 PM »
Adding 'Specializations' as a balance to the prevailant 'Multi-Classing'.  Single profession specialized skills that further define a PC into their chosen role...perhaps a Fighter wielding a 2-handed sword could get access to some multi-target attacks (1st opponent is 90% OB, 2nd target is 60% OB, and 3rd target is 30% OB or something along those lines).

By the time a character is 'higher' level the mages are nuking AoE spells and damaging / critting multiple targets but Fighters rarely get a multi-target attack skill.  Something along those lines would be nice.

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2011, 09:02:18 PM »
I smell feats.
You put your left foot in, you put your left foot out... Traditional Somatic Components
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Offline John Duffield

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2011, 10:20:25 PM »
Lets call them talents with class level requirements ....  ;D
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Offline Mando

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #54 on: January 19, 2011, 01:13:20 AM »
So, who wants to write a "High level adventures" book for HARP v2?  ;)
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Offline SamwiseSeven

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2011, 09:46:33 AM »
Here were my house rules:

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=8361.msg106918#msg106918

I also used a simplified initiative system using playing cards (a la Savage Worlds).

Basically I always thought HARP was a bit too much, and I always aimed at pruning it down into a simpler form.
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Offline Maelstrom

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #56 on: January 28, 2011, 01:27:27 PM »
Lets call them talents with class level requirements ....  ;D

Rasyr proposed a great mechanic for this with the Taoist Monk and chi powers in HB 8 (at least I think it was that one.  Don't have it at hand so can't confirm.)
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Offline kreider204

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2011, 10:26:28 AM »
Basically I always thought HARP was a bit too much, and I always aimed at pruning it down into a simpler form.

There you have it.  When I first heard of HARP, I was actually hoping it would be pretty close to "not-RM" but setting-neutral: 6 stats, fixed development points, a small number of classes, condensed combat system, etc.

Offline Zhaleskra

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2011, 11:36:11 AM »
As people in this topic can probably already tell, I think HARP is plenty easy as it is. I also find the existence of "HARP Lite" silly. Some of the proposed changes I could deal with, others would influence my decision to stay with the original.
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Offline Aaron

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #59 on: January 29, 2011, 03:49:38 PM »
If you decide it's neccessary to lessen the number of skills, maybe have the ones with definite mechanical effect (weapon and armor skills, acrobatics, hide, whatever there is) as "core", and have an explanation that skills are not limited to the ones listed here, but you could pretty much invent your own skills with GM aproval, and make couple of examples? (Stuff like herbcraft, maybe tracking and whatever else there is... Dont really have HARP skillist in my head). One example would have to show overlapping skills (elvish wine bottle making and glassmaking from my previous post).

That would reduce the length of list and be less scary, without reducing character customization to set of pre-written skills, which, to be honest, will always be subset of what characters could know. More gamist people can revert to just cores, and the more storytelling ones can craft those campaings where glassmaking and dancing skills will have an effect. How does it sound?
If any spell can be made into potion, how does fireball potion work when someone drinks it?:D