Author Topic: Skill Rank Progression  (Read 437 times)

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Offline knasman

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Skill Rank Progression
« on: December 02, 2023, 08:59:32 AM »
Hello, I tried finding this topic since I'm sure it has been covered here but couldn't. Sorry if this is a repost.

I am looking for optional rules for skill rank progression. Instead of +5 (1-10), +2 (11-20), +1 (21-30), +0.5 (31+), wasn't there another option? I swear I saw it somewhere but can't find it in any of my books.

I'm mainly interested in going to a flat +3 per rank from 1 to 50. For a slew of reasons: (1) it slows down lower level progress so you don't have players crushing absurd maneuvers immediately, (2) it makes all the math easier for example when banging out NPCs or monsters with skills, (3) it allows for higher level play that makes sense, a level 50 person should indeed be twice as powerful as a level 25 person (ex: for skill ranks including weapon OB). See attached image for example bonus difference levels 1-30.

Anyone know where this optional rule is? Or perhaps I saw it 30 years ago for home brew stuff. Anyone know the reason the more complex method was default?

-K

Offline MisterK

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Re: Skill Rank Progression
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2023, 10:52:17 AM »
There were a number of alternative skill rank bonuses options listed in RoCo VI, pp31-32. All led to an increase of skill rank bonus over time, and none deviate from the +5/rank for the early ranks.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Skill Rank Progression
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2023, 11:24:05 AM »
Beyond that, I can't say. However, saying that PCs can 'crush absurd manoeuvers immediately' is a bit of an exaggeration. They would end up doing so at higher level for their profession skills since the level bonus is linear with level (a level 20 character would have at least 20 ranks in a profession skill, leading to a +70 rank bonus, a stat bonus of, say, +10, and a level bonus ranging from 0 to +60, which makes absurd manoeuvers (-70) a real challenge for those who have a 0 level bonus (basically a 10% chance) while those who have a 3/level bonus have a 70% chance of clearing it (and the number of additional ranks would not change that much: if they developed 2 ranks per level, this would add 15 to their success chances).

I think RM2 was not really developed for level 50 play, but the designers included the diminishing ROI as a counter to bonus explosion (and removed that dampener in RoCo VI options). I also think that the idea was never to have a level 2*N character twice as powerful as a level N character.

But a very simple idea to challenge the characters with high skill level is simply to consider the following : manoeuver difficulties should not be ranked according to arbitrary labels ('easy', 'medium', 'hard'...) but according to the skill bonus that would be generate such a difficulty. The basic principle being that, if two people with the same skill bonus are opposed, there is basically a 50% chance of success for either.

Take a locksmith : a good locksmith has a +70 skill bonus (for example). In order for a character with a +70 pick locks skill bonus to have a 50% chance of success, it means that the challenge difficulty modifier of the lock this locksmith makes is -20.

This way, you don't have any problems of skill inflation: you set the difficulty according to the skill bonus progression in your setting, and have to make sure that this skill bonus progression matches what the characters can do. If, for instance, you consider that elite guards trained to sniff out thieves have a +120 perception bonus, then it means anyone trying to sneak by them will be manoeuvering at -70.

Once you have your average scale, you can modulate the difficulty according to effort. For instance, I tend to consider that craftsmen do not do their best for mundane items day in and day out - but they can do their best once in a while. A "major effort" would result in a -25 additional modifier, and a "once in a lifetime" effort would result in a -50 additional modifier. Conversely, someone who only goes through the motions because they are bored and have something else on their minds (such as tired guards who just want to end their shift in peace and go to the nearest tavern) would result in a +25 effort modifier to the sneak roll.

You don't need to change the skill bonuses. Rather, you can consider what such a bonus means if all manoeuvers are, at least in a symbolic way, 'opposed', and how you rate this opposition. Determine the average skill bonus for a neophyte, an apprentice, a journeyman, an expert, a master, and a luminary, and you have a short list of standard difficulty modifiers. Introduce effort and you add variation. And if you have fleshed out NPCs that have their own individual skill bonuses, the method still applies : trying to get past them is a manoeuver with a difficulty modifier equal to -(skill bonus - 50), before introducing effort.

Offline knasman

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Re: Skill Rank Progression
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2023, 10:13:52 AM »
Thanks for the reply. You had several interesting ideas/examples and I have many comments and questions. And yes of course I was exaggerating.

Not sure how to start given you say the game wasn't designed for high level play. I guess? I mean I'm trying to fix that a bit with some homebrew. Leveling up is fun after a big milestone, and if the campaign becomes ridiculous past level 10-15, what is the point of the system? So, aside from the other reason I gave (easier NPC/monster creation), lets say the goals are: (a) higher level play that is more rewarding when you level (i.e. getting +3 forever feels better than a lifetime of +1 and perhaps +0.5 bonuses), (b) making it so a level 15 fighter would seriously think twice about fighting a level 20 fighter because those extra 10 ranks make for another +30 OB (at +3 each regardless of rank number) and a +120 vs +90 is significant in battle as opposed to +80 vs +85 in the existing system, and (c) a slightly slower progression so characters aren't able to easily overcome difficult actions.

You addressed the third point with some examples that were interesting but slightly confusing to me. Are you saying that physical feats are not absolute? Climbing a slick wall in the rain isn't the same difficulty regardless of the person trying it? Are you saying the difficulty should be like a D&D 5e DC level and just auto scale with higher level characters? If you are not saying this, then my point about +3 flat being slightly more interesting and better for lower level play still holds. They will notice over time their ability to do more difficult things they have failed at many times before. If you are indeed saying all things should scale, then I guess I disagree. There should indeed be a different between party members and what they are capable of, and if everything scaled to the most skilled person then everyone else has probably wasted their ranks.

I like the idea of knowing which negative values reduce something to 50-50, because that is a good point to understand. I would have to like build a table for that because I don't think I can just do it off the top of my head for all different skill usage examples. I am trying to get higher level battle to be less of a coin flip, but it is difficult. I feel like a +3 flat will help with this issue (but it is definitely NOT the only solution).

Offline MisterK

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Re: Skill Rank Progression
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2023, 10:57:43 AM »
Not sure how to start given you say the game wasn't designed for high level play. I guess? I mean I'm trying to fix that a bit with some homebrew. Leveling up is fun after a big milestone, and if the campaign becomes ridiculous past level 10-15, what is the point of the system? So, aside from the other reason I gave (easier NPC/monster creation), lets say the goals are: (a) higher level play that is more rewarding when you level (i.e. getting +3 forever feels better than a lifetime of +1 and perhaps +0.5 bonuses), (b) making it so a level 15 fighter would seriously think twice about fighting a level 20 fighter because those extra 10 ranks make for another +30 OB (at +3 each regardless of rank number) and a +120 vs +90 is significant in battle as opposed to +80 vs +85 in the existing system, and (c) a slightly slower progression so characters aren't able to easily overcome difficult actions.
We come from different schools of RPGing, I guess. I have no problem with a level 15 fighter trying to take on a level 20 fighter he doesn't know - because he doesn't know them. And if they know them, then I'll be sure to give them an in-character estimation of their would-be opponent's skill.
I am also of the school that level is not a major factor all the time. Level class is, to some extend - say, 'low' levels (1-4), 'medium' level (5-10) and 'high' level (11-20). The difference mostly comes from intelligent use of abilities and non-combat spells (investigation and utility). I tend to think of level 20 as a glass ceiling: most people never go above that, because you need more than adventuring and XPs to reach beyond that threshold - you need to understand how the world works, what the power players are, and decide what role you want to play in that game. And then, you have to survive level 50+ people suddenly paying attention.
So, level 15 is not very different from level 18. And I second that. But level 25 is *very* different from level 20, and it's not a question of skill ranks and available spells. So I don't need those to mark the difference.

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You addressed the third point with some examples that were interesting but slightly confusing to me. Are you saying that physical feats are not absolute? Climbing a slick wall in the rain isn't the same difficulty regardless of the person trying it? Are you saying the difficulty should be like a D&D 5e DC level and just auto scale with higher level characters? If you are not saying this, then my point about +3 flat being slightly more interesting and better for lower level play still holds. They will notice over time their ability to do more difficult things they have failed at many times before. If you are indeed saying all things should scale, then I guess I disagree. There should indeed be a different between party members and what they are capable of, and if everything scaled to the most skilled person then everyone else has probably wasted their ranks.
No, difficulties are not relative. They are absolute, but I don't use the scale provided in the RM rules because the names are confusing ('easy' ? 'hard' ? Easy for who and hard for who ?), and the modifiers do not come with a proper rationale. I treat all manoeuvers as opposed manoeuvers, with a simple rule of thumb: if someone is opposed by another person with a similar skill bonus, the chance of success is 50%. So, instead of saying that a manoeuver is "hard" or "easy", I try to come up with the skill bonus that would create such an opposition, or, if it is a natural obstacle (such as a cliff to climb), what kind of skill bonus would lead to a 50-50 chances of success. And then, I can rate the difficulty appropriately (the difficulty modifier is equal to 50 minus this skill bonus).
Then, the only thing I need to do is to rate the typical NPCs: what skill bonus does an 'apprentice' have ? What about a 'professional', or a 'regional champion' ? And with that kind of rating table, I have all the difficulty modifiers I need: a manoeuver is not 'hard', it's one that would give a professional (+70 skill bonus) a run for their money (50-50 odds), so the difficulty is -20.

I use such a table. I also have a small table that gives me difficulty modifiers for effort, and another table that gives me modifiers for conditions and props. These are very generic and more than enough for almost all situations... which I round up to 'all situations'.

So, basically, having a linear ROI for skill ranks developed instead of the RM tradition of having diminishing return is not something I use, because I don't consider level as being a major factor in determining the actual skill of a person. Rather, level determines one's understanding of the 'true world' and one's place in this world. Skills are skills, and since their progression is level-independent (I don't use level bonuses), I have no reason to use a linear modifier. I would come back to a linear progression, but then, I would probably move the diminishing ROI on the skill development cost (rank acquisition cost becoming increasingly more expensive the greater the number of skill ranks you already have in the skill). Though, to be fair, I would probably use a similar system for spell list acquisition, because right now, RM uses diminishing return for skill rank bonus but there is no diminishing return for spell learning - actually, there is a very steep decrease in difficulty after level 20 since the next spell (level 25) actually costs five times as much as the previous one, but it is linear again after that (and you can see where my interpretation of level 20 as a glass ceiling is coming from - in RM1, it would likely have been level 15).

I also tend to run campaigns with a well-defined experience ceiling. Characters start at a given level (say, 6) and I tell the players what level they can expect to reach by the end of the campaign. I had a level 4-6 campaign, a level 6-10, a level 12-19, a level 20-20 (five years of play, not a single level gain - that's the glass ceiling), and the current one is level 9-12. This makes things tighter.

Offline B Hanson

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Re: Skill Rank Progression
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2023, 01:43:34 PM »
We posted up our alternative skill rank bonus progression back in 2016? It's sounds like it's the opposite from what you are trying to achieve though.

https://www.rolemasterblog.com/rm-optional-rules-alternate-skill-rank-bonuses-aptitude-bonuses/
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Offline knasman

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Re: Skill Rank Progression
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2023, 02:23:15 PM »
MisterK,
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We come from different schools of RPGing
Fair enough! To each their own. I guess in your lingo, I was just trying to boost the "glass ceiling" a bit that is all. I really don't see, in the existing system, how a level 50 person vs a level 20 person would be a big deal (skill-wise a +15 difference) and I guess I have an issue with that idea.

I also agree spell list acquisition in RM is a bit crazy (if you use core rules as-is). So a level 10 fighter is a entirely made up of skills, but a mage of some kind can do like 100 different things both in and out of combat? It's very out of balance in my mind. We have homebrew rules to handle this that are off topic from this thread.

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No, difficulties are not relative.
OK good to know. Sounds like you have a good approach and should stick with it. I like the idea of knowing the 50-50 point and will consider that going forward irrespective of the skill rank bonus discussion.

B Hanson,
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We posted up our alternative skill rank bonus progression back in 2016?
Yet another blog post I missed! I'm sure one of many. I actually like that concept, the smooth build up then atrophy. I could see it being easy to move the "peak" of it if one wanted a higher level max level.

Sounds like the thread is concluded. There is no optional rule for what I'm looking for so I'll just do yet another homebrew and it will work out fine. Thanks for the responses!

Offline B Hanson

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Re: Skill Rank Progression
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2023, 03:15:35 PM »
I've run 11 iterations of my 50th level adventure series: "Legends of Shadow World" and have blogged about our experience with 50th lvl adventuring.

https://www.rolemasterblog.com/grand-apathy-50th-lvl-characters/
https://www.rolemasterblog.com/50th-level-adventures-deconstruction-design-chapter-1-legends-shadow-world/
https://www.rolemasterblog.com/legends-shadow-world-building-pc-group/
https://www.rolemasterblog.com/50th-level-adventures-rolemaster-work/
https://www.rolemasterblog.com/legends-of-shadow-world-chapters-1-5/

With that said, I would offer some quick thoughts:

1. With skill rank bonuses leveling off at + 1/2 after 20 ranks, there is not much "skill bonus" difference in a 20th lvl character and a 30th or 40th level character.
2. We probably have used Rolemasters MERP and Shadow World's NPC's as a guide to power of high level NPC's. Terry did not build these by scratch--many are very overpowered and/or have items that highly inflate abilities.
3. Parrying becomes even more important at higher levels.
4. Many of the spells from 20th on are just "farther, harder, faster" or 1 target/level which doesn't really leverage power unless there are dozens of combatants (or hundreds). I found many high level spells were just cinematic without impacting actual game play. (thus one of the reasons for BASiL.)
5. Power multipliers really shift play balance at higher levels. I've mostly removed them from my rule set, but there you have it.



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