Author Topic: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?  (Read 15133 times)

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Offline David Johansen

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2009, 08:13:56 PM »
I think that modern western martial artists* make a few assumptions that are incorrect.  For one thing they are doing intensive crosstraining with the advantage of a modern scientific approach to martial arts.

1 - If you look at specific periods and places the range of weapons is narrowed down significantly and the range of weapons a warrior would train with is similarly narrowed down.

2 - Specific weapons were in fact designed to defeat specific armour trends.  Warhammers, for example, are a direct result of plate armour becoming more common.  Similarly maces enjoy a surge in popularity when chain is widely available.

3 - The restrictions of non-lethal sparring will never be able to properly simulate wounds and the effectiveness of armour.  Just as in mixed martial arts many highly effective techniques are disallowed because they are lethal.


4 - The relationship between weapon skills is discrete, what Rolemaster doesn't do quite well enough is encourage the study of a diverse repoitare.  In the real world, an olympic fencer isn't likely to excell at the javelin.  There's nothing in Rolemaster that stops a fighter from building a broad range of weapon skills.  The problem is that it isn't encouraged, though the +20 profession bonus does represent this to some extent.  Even so, if I re-wrote the game there'd be fewer weapon categories.

I'm not discounting the value of modern western martial arts.  I think they've got a lot to teach us.  But I don't think they always do a good job of separating out what they are doing from the broader field of what else is and has gone on elsewhere.

* or perhaps just those who claim to be on message boards...

Offline markc

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2009, 09:16:25 PM »
I
4 - The relationship between weapon skills is discrete, what Rolemaster doesn't do quite well enough is encourage the study of a diverse repoitare.  In the real world, an olympic fencer isn't likely to excell at the javelin.  There's nothing in Rolemaster that stops a fighter from building a broad range of weapon skills.  The problem is that it isn't encouraged, though the +20 profession bonus does represent this to some extent.  Even so, if I re-wrote the game there'd be fewer weapon categories.

 Do you like the HARP rule that lets you pick one weapon in the category that gets full OB and the rest get some minus to the total category OB? [You can also buy a talent in which a second or more weapons can use the full OB.]

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Offline Elton Robb

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2009, 09:18:29 PM »
I've never claimed to study the Artes of Mars. ;)  Well, Kung Fu and Tai Chi.  That's about it.
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Offline David Johansen

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2009, 10:40:21 PM »
It's okay I guess.  I like RMSS skill category system best, really.  It just has a few too many categories.  I'd probably reduce the whole range to.

Edged
Concussion
Bows
Slings
Artillery
Firearms & Crossbows

Because most one handed weapons can be used two handed in any case.  On the other hand the similarities between using a bow and a sling are pretty minimal.

Offline providence13

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2009, 12:04:42 AM »

Edged
Concussion
Bows
Slings
Artillery
Firearms & Crossbows

  On the other hand the similarities between using a bow and a sling are pretty minimal.

One could also add, using an unfamiliar/somebody else's bow should have a major (-20?) penalty until a skill rank (perhaps) can be used to learn the "new" weapon.
OK, not having the skill is ~-15, so -20 is too harsh. ;D But you get my point. A borrowed sling wouldn't have an extreme penalty. Maybe Muscle Propelled and Mechanically Propelled Weapon Cat..or something...

Because most one handed weapons can be used two handed in any case.
Yeah, a "bastard"(axe/mace) sword shouldn't need a separate skill just because it's used with 2 hands.
It could have an init penalty in exchange for a nice St OB (x2) bonus....Anyone who's swung a sword/mace,axe, etc. ONCE (no, I don't even do this as a hobby;but I do use knives, professionally) knows that you can go pretty fast with one hand but a lot harder with 2.

 I never really understood why Artillery was included in Rolemaster weapon Categories. One could say that Siegecraft/Engineering only handles the construction of such devices... :-\ But I can't picture a siege  engineer ordering troops to build something as complex as a trebuchet and then turn the aiming over to someone else. Unit Tactics, Situational Awareness, Advanced Math, Engineering..."Now it's complete. OK Bucky Goodeye, you get to push the lever (Artillery as main Weapon Cat);" haha!
Maybe Artillery is a bridge/catch-all skill to handle cannons and such.? :P Since these aren't in most RM  fantasy games...I'd drop it. :)

 
 
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2009, 12:56:31 AM »
A Sentinels battle axe.  Those demons weild a +20 Battle Axe with a built in four shot heavy crossbow.  I'm nice and don't apply the bonus most of the time against the players when the xbow is used, but since listed OB is 150, that's all I need to make some eyes bulge when I announce the +160 attack (+10 is for a normal/full action is RMSS/FRP).
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Offline thrud

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2009, 01:59:59 AM »
Ok, it looks like the tread has moved on a little since my last post.
My $0.02...
RM should be very easy to mod in this regard.
Since RM is all about cummulative damage during a 10s round the easy fix is just adding some other criticals to the tables.
Nothing else needed.

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2009, 03:39:22 AM »
Opps.  That last post was the wrong thread.   :bang:
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

giulio.trimarco

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2009, 05:26:38 AM »
Well,
some interesting post are here  :D!!

MMMM, I wonder why many of you think that revising the combat system to accomodate more "medieval concepts" necesseraly will bring a more complex system.

 ::)

Offline thrud

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2009, 05:43:30 AM »
I like the K.I.S.S. principle.
In what way do you feel RM would benifit from a more complex system?

During the 10s you try to hurt your opponent in any way you can. He does the same to you.
Initiative is rolled to see who gets to score the first hard blow/crit.

If you rewrite some of the lower crits to say stuff like.
  • Knee to the groin
  • Headbutt to the nose
  • Elbow to the cheek
  • Bite his ear
  • Thumb in his eye
  • Strike with your hilt
And stuff like that. Well, suddenly you have made a very interesting point. Battle isn't just striking him with the pointy end of your weapon.
Eerything revolves around total amount of damage dealt during a round.
Initiative is about who score the first dangerous blow.
It's not bruses that kill.  ;D

giulio.trimarco

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2009, 07:03:10 AM »
In what way do you feel RM would benifit from a more complex system?

No one said that.
No one wants to add complexity.  :'(
The idea is to finding new assumptions on which base revised combat mechanics. Not more complexity.


And remember, when you dress an AT20 if it's not the crit that will kill you (very likely), it's the fatigue that will have you killed.

Quote
Eerything revolves around total amount of damage dealt during a round.

Here it is an assumption. Imho combat is much more. Much more.

Offline thrud

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2009, 07:28:13 AM »
Eerything revolves around total amount of damage dealt during a round.

Here it is an assumption. Imho combat is much more. Much more.

Take a look at Phoenix Command if you want detailed combat.
I was just making a point.
RM combat IS damage per round.
If you want something else you'll have to scrap the entire Armslaw combat system and come up with something entirely different.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2009, 08:27:21 AM »
Warning: Rant ahead

I really believe that no game is perfect, and creating the perfect roleplaying game is beyond the scope for us humans.

Perfect games aside (a game can be perfect in doing what it was designed to do, if it's desinged well and its scope is small enough. We could say that hide-and-seek is a perfect game, because is perfectly functional, but I digress...), perfectly replicating real life (or combat, in this case) with a rpg is impossible. Not only: it's nonsensical.
RPGs are not designed (well, should not be designed!) with the goal of replicating RL, they're written with the goal of being FUN to play with.
IMHO saying "rules X sucks because in real life things don't work this way" is absurd. Really, what does it mean and who cares? This is a game, not RL. It's like complaining that Risk rules are not "realistic" enough.
So, instead of trying to make game rules more "realistic" (an impossible task) IMHO one should aim at making them more functional and fun.
RM combat surely isn't "realistic" (whatever realistic means), but it's functional and fun to play. Could it be better? Sure! There are lots of things that could be changed to make it even more fun! But they'll never be found by continuing to search for ways of replicating RL.



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giulio.trimarco

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2009, 11:41:47 AM »
As always seems that many of you are in the defensive here and few catch the spirit of this thread.

No one here are saying that RM should be realistic and that RM isn't a good system.

Enjoy.

Offline jolt

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2009, 11:53:27 AM »
Warning: Rant ahead

Too late! *Slams into rant at full speed taking a "B" rant critical.  Result: must respond to the question, "How's your day going?" with the answer, "Worse than five seconds ago."*

I really believe that no game is perfect, and creating the perfect roleplaying game is beyond the scope for us humans.

Perfect games aside (a game can be perfect in doing what it was designed to do, if it's desinged well and its scope is small enough. We could say that hide-and-seek is a perfect game, because is perfectly functional, but I digress...), perfectly replicating real life (or combat, in this case) with a rpg is impossible. Not only: it's nonsensical.
RPGs are not designed (well, should not be designed!) with the goal of replicating RL, they're written with the goal of being FUN to play with.
IMHO saying "rules X sucks because in real life things don't work this way" is absurd. Really, what does it mean and who cares? This is a game, not RL. It's like complaining that Risk rules are not "realistic" enough.
So, instead of trying to make game rules more "realistic" (an impossible task) IMHO one should aim at making them more functional and fun.
RM combat surely isn't "realistic" (whatever realistic means), but it's functional and fun to play. Could it be better? Sure! There are lots of things that could be changed to make it even more fun! But they'll never be found by continuing to search for ways of replicating RL.

I pretty much agree.  At the end of the day you're playing a game.  Presumably because you have fun playing it.  Whatever you add in there's always something more you could add on top of it.  At a certain point you begin moving away from the 'game' aspect of things. 

Some things are harder to modify than others as well - and more than likely something else is already doing what you want anyways.  Apples and Oranges can both be great but when you try to make one into the other you can end up with a big mess.

jolt
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2009, 12:05:08 PM »
One basic concept of combat that I'd like to see implemented in RMC is the notion of range/reach. I have my own rules now, but I've always been annoyed that a man with a sword could fight at equal footing with a man with a spear.
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2009, 01:46:20 PM »
As always seems that many of you are in the defensive here and few catch the spirit of this thread.

No one here are saying that RM should be realistic and that RM isn't a good system.

Enjoy.

Maybe you should explain better what's the point of this thread then. I thought that the main topic here was revising some concepts behind the mechanics of RM combat, which I think is a good thing, the system really needs a revision.
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Offline Frabby

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2009, 03:58:23 PM »
I am sorry if my earlier input sounded negative. To be sure, RM/Arms Law is totally usable, on the understanding that these rules apply for and against anyone within my campaign, PCs and NPCs alike. That's why we've been playing it for literally decades. (Now I feel old.)
Funny as it may sound, the only combat system that I ever liked better happens to be FASA's BattleTroops, but that system is focused on firearms and sort of breaks apart when trying to depict medieval-style hand-to-hand combat.

Back to the original topic of this thread, I think the initial question was about comparing Arms Law rules to what we feel are the underlying concepts of hand-to-hand combat. And in response to that, my feeling is that RM can be criticized for:
- randomizing things that it should not, while at the same time limiting (for lack of a better word) things that I feel are actually significantly more random;
- taking a too linear approach on what is "better" where equally valid choices actually should resemble a rock, paper, scissors approach (i.e. chain mail is good against blades, so-so against bludgeons and almost worthless against arrows {mind that was a simplified example!})
- micromanaging things in a way that lends itself to rules lawyering.

If you asked me how to create a new set of combat rules that will work with existing Character Law rules, this is how I would go about it:

1. Treat Body Development as exhaustion points, and abandon the concept of hit points. Instead of ticking off hitpoints when suffering damage, characters should have Wounds applied to them that incur penalties. The combination of two Wounds may be worse that the individual effects of those two Wounds. Make Wound healing a lot more unpredictable. An approach that I liked was HarnMaster (I think) where you rolled for your wounds each night and depending on circumstances (wound severity, constitution, overall physical condition/other wounds, food, bed, medical attention) the roll could result in the wound getting better (reducing the penalties), not better or even worse.

2. Instead of individual weapon skills, develop specific "attack styles", i.e. methods to hit an enemy. This is the maneuver you roll for during your action phase. A given weapon (i.e. sword, spear, etc.) will give a bonus to different attack styles; effectively, each and every weapon is used as if using a weapon kata under Arms Law rules. After all, mace will give better results when bashing the enemy, but a naked fist will do in a pinch.
Very successful attacks may yield a bonus for the following step:

3. If an enemy is hit, determine where you hit him. A major factor in this are the combat styles that the two combattants use. Some forms of DB (especially shields) actually only come into play at this point, but could not prevent you from being hit in the first place. Parrying with a shield, for example, actually means you deliberately allow yourself to be hit on your shield arm which has tremendous armor through the shield (smart against human-sized weapons but think twice using a shield against that troll's tree-mace!). Parrying with a weapon would include the weapon itself as a hit zone.

4. Once you know that you hit, and where you hit, you want to know how you hit. Let's say your chosen attack style was stabbing, and you hit the enemy chest. What kind of wound are you going to inflict? Attack style, weapon used, armor on hit zone and strength of attacker all go into determining the type of wound. Armor will typically change the wound type to more harmless types, or deflect an attack entirely; certain armor types will perform better against certain attack styles and not so good against others (e.g. a chain mail may make a cut become a bash, a leather jerking may make a bash into a largely harmless push - lucky you if you wore a leather jerking beneath that chain mail; a plate mail may completely deflect a weak attack from a blade).
Hit accuracy, however (OB), does not have an impact on this! There is a cardinal difference between tagging your opponent and landing a serious blow...

The advantage of this approach is that it follows the process of attacking an enemy closer than the current rules, and reflects circumstances far more than the very random results of the existing crit tables.

On the down side, it adds at least one roll to the combat sequence, per attack, so it certainly does complicate things. Worse, you will have to differ between to-hit DB, hit zone DB, and armor protection.

Offline David Johansen

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2009, 08:13:36 PM »
One basic concept of combat that I'd like to see implemented in RMC is the notion of range/reach. I have my own rules now, but I've always been annoyed that a man with a sword could fight at equal footing with a man with a spear.

RMSS has initiative modifiers for reach.  Is there anything it can't do? :D

Offline Elton Robb

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2009, 08:30:43 PM »

3. If an enemy is hit, determine where you hit him. A major factor in this are the combat styles that the two combattants use. Some forms of DB (especially shields) actually only come into play at this point, but could not prevent you from being hit in the first place. Parrying with a shield, for example, actually means you deliberately allow yourself to be hit on your shield arm which has tremendous armor through the shield (smart against human-sized weapons but think twice using a shield against that troll's tree-mace!). Parrying with a weapon would include the weapon itself as a hit zone.



ON the Keep It Simple Side, John Curtis III used the Moving Manuever Table when he GMed rolemaster combat.  His players would state a target, then he'd give an arbitrary number to hit that specific spot using the Critical Strike tables as a guide.  I've never tried it before, but I'd love to.  I think combat would go like this (an example).

GM: "Okay, you see the three rogues out to gain bust your party for no apparent reason except you are there.   The three of them rush you at once.  One of them is armed with a sap, another is armed with an arming sword (treat as a broadsword with a -10 penalty), and a third is using a falchionated bastard sword.  What do you do?"

Player 1 (Cleric): "I scream and run!"

Player 2 (fighter): "I club one with my longsword's pommel."

Player 3 (Mage): "I start an incantation for a firebolt"

Player 4 (Rogue): "I'm at the tavern, are there any girls there?"

GM: "Okay, Piffany (cleric), you go scream and yell at the top of your lungs.  You're being chased by thug 1 with the sap.  Delgadis (mage), one of the rogues goes to hit you with the pommel of your falchion . . ."

Player Fighter: " -- I bash that one on the head with the pommel of my sword -- "


GM: " Roll a Hard moving manuever!"

Player Fighter: (rolls a 117) "YAY!"

GM: "You knock one of the rogues, giving him a bruise and dazing him as the other trips you -- (rolls 120) on your feet -- "

Player rogue: "Are there any girls in the inn!"

GM: (Rolls a 200) "As you ask, Noctos, the other rogue just ran you through with his arming sword.  There's blood dripping everywhere, and your heart stops."

Player rogue: "Dang!!"


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