Author Topic: Mooks in Rolemaster  (Read 2126 times)

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Online EltonJ

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Mooks in Rolemaster
« on: March 25, 2022, 04:58:56 PM »
How do you handle mooks?  Robin D. Laws says that they only have 4 hits, and they are either up or down. 

Offline Hurin

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Re: Mooks in Rolemaster
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2022, 05:17:01 PM »
In Rolemaster, I take the approach that Mooks are people too.

Mooks make sense in DnD as there is almost no chance, statistically, that a 5 hp level 1 Orc can kill a 100 hp level 10 fighter. In Rolemaster, though, as we all know I'm sure by example, even the humblest mooks can drop the mightiest fighters if the stars align. So I don't use mooks in the DnD sense. I like my fantasy Vietnam.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Mooks in Rolemaster
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2022, 09:20:49 PM »
Not really any cannon-fodder in our games. They make for boring kills.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Mooks in Rolemaster
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2022, 09:35:34 PM »
That's true. Fully developed 3rd and 4th level NPCs generally end up being quickly-dropped mooks against my 8th level PCs, but every once in a while they pull off something amazing, or the PCs make terrible rolls and spare them for a few rounds.

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Offline Dreven1

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Re: Mooks in Rolemaster
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2022, 11:10:24 PM »
Not really any cannon-fodder in our games. They make for boring kills.
The weakest humanoid you're going to kill is assumed to have at least adolescence ranks.

I can second that statement! No matter the bartender, the acolyte or farmer, they all are at least level 1 and *SOME* profession.  I even have a 'stash' of ready to inject skills and general combat ability based on the type they might be. I use the basic NPC chart in RMSS and go from there.
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Mooks in Rolemaster
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2022, 04:24:05 AM »
CYRANO: 'To be struck down,
Pierced by sword i' the heart, from a hero's hand!'
That I had dreamed. O mockery of Fate!
--Killed, I! of all men--in an ambuscade!
Struck from behind, and by a lackey's hand!
'Tis very well. I am foiled, foiled in all,
Even in my death.

  Countless heroes through the ages have been struck down by nameless peasants throughout history. Who fired the arrow that dropped King Leonidas at Thermopylae? Or the arrow that killed King Harold at Hastings? Mooks in numbers can be dangerous.   

 
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Mooks in Rolemaster
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2022, 07:49:51 AM »
Closer to RM (though I love Cyrano), a friend of mine once had his 14th level fighter suffer a lethal wound from a panicked level 3 orc who was basically looking for a way to escape and lashed out with his blade while rushing by. Attack from the rear, one high OE and 90+ crit later, the hero was down, leg tendons sectioned, and bleeding out.

Never underestimate a mook who thinks there's a way out.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Mooks in Rolemaster
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2022, 11:30:41 AM »

Countless heroes through the ages have been struck down by nameless peasants throughout history. Who fired the arrow that dropped King Leonidas at Thermopylae? Or the arrow that killed King Harold at Hastings? Mooks in numbers can be dangerous.   


And sometimes even alone. Richard the Lionhearted was killed by a humble crossbowman. When Richard (on his deathbed) summoned him, it was discovered that the crossbowman was in fact a mere boy.

Stuff like that doesn't really happen in DnD, because of the mechanics. Rolemaster is kind of like the Dark Souls of RPGs.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Online EltonJ

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Re: Mooks in Rolemaster
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2022, 02:33:28 PM »

Countless heroes through the ages have been struck down by nameless peasants throughout history. Who fired the arrow that dropped King Leonidas at Thermopylae? Or the arrow that killed King Harold at Hastings? Mooks in numbers can be dangerous.   


And sometimes even alone. Richard the Lionhearted was killed by a humble crossbowman. When Richard (on his deathbed) summoned him, it was discovered that the crossbowman was in fact a mere boy.

Stuff like that doesn't really happen in DnD, because of the mechanics. Rolemaster is kind of like the Dark Souls of RPGs.

Ah.  No it doesn't.  D&D was designed to be a level based system.  The more levels you gain, the more powerful you become.  Rolemaster is skill based, and I'm sure someone runs the game to be level-less. Rolemaster has levels, but they are used differently.  Thanks for answering my questions about mooks.  I'm pretty sure that Rolemaster wasn't designed to be a Action-movie simulator (Feng Shui is that!).

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Mooks in Rolemaster
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2022, 04:33:52 PM »

Countless heroes through the ages have been struck down by nameless peasants throughout history. Who fired the arrow that dropped King Leonidas at Thermopylae? Or the arrow that killed King Harold at Hastings? Mooks in numbers can be dangerous.   


And sometimes even alone. Richard the Lionhearted was killed by a humble crossbowman. When Richard (on his deathbed) summoned him, it was discovered that the crossbowman was in fact a mere boy.

Stuff like that doesn't really happen in DnD, because of the mechanics. Rolemaster is kind of like the Dark Souls of RPGs.
  I was going to use Richard Lionheart as an example but I wanted to avoid a wall of text, such as Richard releasing the boy...who was later flayed and hanged after Richard died.

  In one adventure using a combat simulator rules, my party convinced a 12 year old boy to snipe at a wizard with a heavy crossbow. One dead wizard and a child tortured to death by an irate lord...
 
  GMs in my group  us Mooks all the time -From bomb-laden children to backstabbing janitors, there's no wonder why my parties are always wary and quick to kill.
When the Master governs, the people
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Mooks in Rolemaster
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2022, 01:19:30 AM »
Stuff like that doesn't really happen in DnD, because of the mechanics. Rolemaster is kind of like the Dark Souls of RPGs.
Or not. The day a NPC with his +10 BO is able to even hit my PCs with their 120 DB... Yes, it is possible if the NPC rerolls three times, which has 0.0125% of happening, which pretty much means it'll never happen (not to mention he'd then need to roll high for the critical roll to make any significant damage). Honestly, RM fans should get their mind out of the idea that RM is so much different from (A)D&D for the matter, especially as there are thousands of deadlier RPGs out there, including "famous" ones, such as Stormbringer or RuneQuest...
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Mooks in Rolemaster
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2022, 10:07:51 AM »
...there are thousands of deadlier RPGs out there, including "famous" ones, such as Stormbringer or RuneQuest...

I'm not sure there are 'thousands', but I'm sure there are deadlier ones. We actually renamed Stormbringer to Comabringer after we played it.

But for me, the mere fact that a mook could roll open ended, however unlikely, changes the feel of combat and often the way characters approach it. One of my groups has just switched from DnD to Rolemaster and all of a sudden they are thinking about things like actually paying the guard's toll, talking their way out of combat, and even (gasp!) retreating.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline MisterK

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Re: Mooks in Rolemaster
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2022, 12:58:20 PM »
One of my groups has just switched from DnD to Rolemaster and all of a sudden they are thinking about things like actually paying the guard's toll, talking their way out of combat, and even (gasp!) retreating.
Paying the guard's toll does not require a more lethal combat system than D&D. It requires players able to play characters who are not bullies and outlaws, however :p

I don't know if it's a cultural thing, but since tolls were a standard part of medieval life (at bridges, mills, town gates...), people I know don't bat an eye when their characters must pay - they have the historical reference.

Offline jdale

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Re: Mooks in Rolemaster
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2022, 01:14:23 PM »
Level is important here too. For a low-to-moderate level party, even if they don't have a serious risk of dying, they could be stuck with injury penalties from one lucky critical for weeks. For a high-level party, it gets easier and easier to wipe those out with healing so the consequences of bad luck in combat start to disappear. But if you've trained the PCs through the low levels, some of those habits and concerns and ways of dealing with the world will remain in their mindset.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Mooks in Rolemaster
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2022, 07:57:16 PM »
Shadowrun is deadlier than RM, in my experience.

I expect (and want) mooks in a game like 7th Sea, but in RM, not so much. I think the thing to remember is that not all combatants will fight to the death. Getting a moderate injury is usually enough to make them bow out if at all possible.
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Mooks in Rolemaster
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2022, 08:56:41 AM »
Shadowrun is deadlier than RM, in my experience.
  Games with firearms and no magic or science fantasy are very deadly. One of my friends ran a real world mercenary campaign and the people who expected to be playing "D&D with Guns" died often, even against faceless Mooks, as even a child is deadly when pulling a trigger.
  As a war gamer, I always apply rules of modern warfare:
1) Never start a battle that isn't already won
2) If the fight is fair, you messed up.
When the Master governs, the people
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Mooks in Rolemaster
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2022, 09:11:08 AM »
Shadowrun is deadlier than RM, in my experience.
  Games with firearms and no magic or science fantasy are very deadly.
Shadowrun is not really a "no magic" setting. However, magic does not make it less deadly (DocWagon[TM] does, most runners can't pay for it :p). ANd, as someone said earlier, fantasy games like Stormbringer are really deadly as well.

Quote
As a war gamer, I always apply rules of modern warfare:
1) Never start a battle that isn't already won
2) If the fight is fair, you messed up.

That's probably the real difference between games - the attrition-based games where statistical approach to combat can be used, and those where you have to make sure the opponent doesn't get any real chance of hurting you back.

You can guess the lethality of a game by its pitch - if the authors want you to play action heroes, it's probably not deadly.

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Mooks in Rolemaster
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2022, 09:35:02 AM »
Quote
...fantasy games like Stormbringer are really deadly as well.
  As a longtime reader of Moorcock novels, if you aren't a god or Elric, you are just a Mook.
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
-Lao Tzu

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Mooks in Rolemaster
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2022, 11:22:00 AM »
"Paranoïa" has to be the deadliest game ever, since everyone is a mook there! "Call of Cthulhu" may rank second since, compared to the eldritch abominations the PCs has to oppose, every being is a mook!
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Online EltonJ

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Re: Mooks in Rolemaster
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2022, 12:52:21 PM »
"Paranoïa" has to be the deadliest game ever, since everyone is a mook there! "Call of Cthulhu" may rank second since, compared to the eldritch abominations the PCs has to oppose, every being is a mook!

Paranoia is funny, but I can't stand to play that game.