Author Topic: Hereditary Monarchy......and Lifegiving  (Read 889 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Green Manalishi

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 111
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Hereditary Monarchy......and Lifegiving
« on: June 09, 2022, 12:52:53 AM »
A thought came to me with a situation in my campaign, say a king dies and the heir takes the throne. Then she dies and the heir then takes the throne.

What would happen if the first King is resurrected? How would that play out?

I ask because in my game a lost artifact only functions for the rightful king. This king was killed but there is a faction that will try to resurrect him.

And to throw a wrench, one of his predecessors who was rightfully king is now a lich, and wants that artifact back.

Offline MisterK

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 656
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Hereditary Monarchy......and Lifegiving
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2022, 02:47:22 AM »
It depends on so many things that getting a straight answer is next to impossible.
- according to law, can a monarch be deposed legally, or must they die or relinquish the crown willingly for it to go to someone else ?
- what is the social and traditional view of elders  - is it "the head of the family is always the elder", or is it something different, such as "the head of the family is the one in a position of power" ?
- are deceased people still part of the social order in some way or not ?
- what is the social view on resurrection ? what is the view of the law ? what is the view of the religion, or religions ?
- is the current monarch popular or not ? Was the deceased monarch popular or not ? How much time passed since their demise, and did their memory fade somewhat in the global consciousness ?
- would the current monarch defer to their ancestor, or are they secure enough in their own self ?
- are the people who want to resurrect the old king popular, or are they nobodies, or even considered troublemakers (or even criminals - you know, people who go looting ruins and tombs instead of earning their keep honestly with a trade) ?
- is the artifact known for this capability to design the rightful king ? Who actually believes that ? Who would use that legend to prop up their own candidate ? And if the artifact is not well known, can it be falsified somehow - use the legend to design a false artifact that would just convince the populace that whoever takes it *is* the rightful king ?
- is it possible to have several "rightful" kings ? (if there is no divine right, then it might be possible to have several legitimate kings and a partition of the kingdom).

The answer doesn't exist in a vacuum. You might get a civil war out of it, depending on the general population view of the matter and how the various political forces align with the crown contestants.

What is sure is that the *current* monarch starts with a position of power - they wear the crown, and if they want to keep it, someone will have to take it from them.

Offline Vladimir

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 154
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Hereditary Monarchy......and Lifegiving
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2022, 11:41:30 AM »
  Royal order of succession are normally set by law and updated by a new sovereign, births, deaths, marriages and other factors.
  The status of resurrected people would be determined by law. Since a person cannot be resurrected unless first declared dead, what is the legal status of a dead person? Normally, their ranks, properties, etc., are reassigned as per law. So, it is up to legislation to restore a resurrected individual's legal status, once qualifications are determined and challenges resolved.
    Do legal standards take precedence over other considerations? How much weight does religion have? Would a king summoned from another era also have claim to the throne?

Quote
And to throw a wrench, one of his predecessors who was rightfully king is now a lich, and wants that artifact back.
  Again, legal standards would take precedence. What is the legal status of a lich? How does an item resolve the criteria of "rightful king" among a number of qualified successors? How does anybody expect to calibrate such an item for accuracy?
Quote
WOMAN: Well, how did you become King, then?
ARTHUR: The Lady of the Lake,...
[angels sing]
...her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur.
[singing stops]

That is why I am your king!
DENNIS: Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
 
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
-Lao Tzu

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,103
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: Hereditary Monarchy......and Lifegiving
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2022, 12:11:19 PM »
Whenever there is any legal ambiguity whatsoever, and often when there isn't, if there are factions supporting two different individuals the result is conflict. Depending on the parties involved that could be political conflict (trying to convince enough people to sway a decision) or all the way up to civil war.

Define the laws in a way that supports the story you want to tell. Do you want a conflict? If so, do you want it to be a quiet behind the scenes political conflict, a big open political struggle, a full out war, etc? If you want a political struggle, there should be some kind of political process to make the decision, e.g. maybe there is a council of nobles who formally make the decision and a certain number need to be persuaded. If you want a war, don't have a political process, have a tradition that has not needed any conflict resolution in the past so there isn't any agreed-upon way to settle it. Or have a political process that requires consensus or otherwise will fail to resolve.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline EltonJ

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 378
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Hereditary Monarchy......and Lifegiving
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2022, 03:13:11 PM »
Whenever there is any legal ambiguity whatsoever, and often when there isn't, if there are factions supporting two different individuals the result is conflict. Depending on the parties involved that could be political conflict (trying to convince enough people to sway a decision) or all the way up to civil war.

Define the laws in a way that supports the story you want to tell. Do you want a conflict? If so, do you want it to be a quiet behind the scenes political conflict, a big open political struggle, a full out war, etc? If you want a political struggle, there should be some kind of political process to make the decision, e.g. maybe there is a council of nobles who formally make the decision and a certain number need to be persuaded. If you want a war, don't have a political process, have a tradition that has not needed any conflict resolution in the past so there isn't any agreed-upon way to settle it. Or have a political process that requires consensus or otherwise will fail to resolve.

What if it was the King's time to die?  Would life giving still work?

Offline Vladimir

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 154
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Hereditary Monarchy......and Lifegiving
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2022, 04:15:31 PM »
Whenever there is any legal ambiguity whatsoever, and often when there isn't, if there are factions supporting two different individuals the result is conflict. Depending on the parties involved that could be political conflict (trying to convince enough people to sway a decision) or all the way up to civil war.
  As a GM I have these scenarios scripted and once the players enter the scene, a timer starts that determine the actions of NPCs along the story.
Example: The Players enter the scene and choose to support King A. Activate Faction A, Activate Faction B...X nobles choose Faction A while Y nobles side with Faction B, led by King B. Faction C forms to wait and see until one Faction looks powerful. Faction D forms to create chaos by staging attacks and assassinations vs the other Factions.
  Most of my players don't do intrigue well so I toss them into a situation where they have to negotiate their way through a maze of competing interests of parties maneuvering to gain positions of power and influence. When I say "timer" I mean the time the players are allotted to act before the other Factions act. If the players just wait to react, they could get behind the curve in a bad way. The Competing factions are making deals, recruiting support and marking individuals for assassination. If the players are not proactive, they wind up finding out the king they backed was killed while they were asleep.
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
-Lao Tzu

Offline Spectre771

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,385
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Hereditary Monarchy......and Lifegiving
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2022, 04:22:35 PM »
As the GM, couldn't you say "...and in following the rules of this culture in this gaming world, the rightful ruler is..."?  Look at all the different types of ruling governments in this world today.  Which one is the correct one?  Which ones have not had any uprisings or challenges to the throne?

I always fall back on "It's your gaming world.  You're the GM." 

Taking real world examples into consideration and applying them to a fantasy game with your posed question, I would say (after the initial shock of seeing my zombie-grandfather) "Welcome home Grandfather.  I'm also a king, you can retain the honorific of king or emeritus, however I am the current ruler."   And I would probably also add a "Holy crap! What the hell????" in there for good measure.

If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,103
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: Hereditary Monarchy......and Lifegiving
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2022, 05:25:43 PM »
If all the possible kings agree about the outcome, it will probably work out without much trouble. They are family after all, that's certainly a possibility.

Although that said, I think it might be an interesting scenario to have two powerful conflicting factions of nobles bringing a nation to the brink of civil war (or past the brink), backing two possible monarchs neither of whom actually want a conflict at all. Probably whispering a lot of lies into the ears of each candidate, or maybe hiding them away "for their own safety in this time of trouble".
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,222
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Hereditary Monarchy......and Lifegiving
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2022, 06:03:38 PM »
Considering knowledge of the magical item exists, surely the laws of the kingdom has some mentions of its role and order of precedence in naming a king. If they do not, then said item has no legal existence, thus cannot name a legal king…
Then, of course, you have how it chooses "the rightful king". Does it indicate any divine will? Does it roll a die? If the former, then surely said gods, god or goddess have a saying in the matter, and should be able to act as judge(s) in the matter.
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Vladimir

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 154
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Hereditary Monarchy......and Lifegiving
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2022, 06:39:23 PM »
Considering knowledge of the magical item exists, surely the laws of the kingdom has some mentions of its role and order of precedence in naming a king. If they do not, then said item has no legal existence, thus cannot name a legal king…
Then, of course, you have how it chooses "the rightful king". Does it indicate any divine will? Does it roll a die? If the former, then surely said gods, god or goddess have a saying in the matter, and should be able to act as judge(s) in the matter.
  I look at magic items a form of computer and when programming, GIGO is operative (Garbage in, Garbage out) so the caster or enchanter would set the criteria, and therefore, could be wrong or even corrupt.
During the Chinese Warring States Period (475-221BCE) all of the kings of the seven minor kingdoms claimed some form of descent of the imperial line and competed for dominance. Since all the kings were more or less equals, they fought constantly and when one gained too much power, would form coalitions to resist the most powerful kingdom...until King Zheng of Qin waged a nine-year campaign to unite China. When the Qin Empire stood unchallenged, it set the precedence of the Mandate of Heaven, or, the fact that Zheng was victorious was an indication that the victory was determined by divine intervention, and hence, the legitimacy of the empire was also divine. All subsequent rulers of China cite the Mandate of Heaven as their legitimacy, even today.

"God is on the side with the biggest battalions." -Napoleon Bonaparte
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
-Lao Tzu

Offline gog

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 108
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Hereditary Monarchy......and Lifegiving
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2022, 02:24:04 PM »
A couple of notes to add into the mix:

1) the Rightful KingTM might depend on the coronation ceremony/oath. Does it include words such as "my whole life through/as long as I live" etc.

2) The primary issue here may not be the crown, but the inheritance of other nobles. If there is a chance of individuals being brought back and claiming their property and titles back then everyone else stands to lose. This may drive the view more than other things, especially if all comes from the crown.

Offline Green Manalishi

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 111
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Hereditary Monarchy......and Lifegiving
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2022, 04:29:56 PM »
Thanks for the input, all. Lots of good points to think about.

With the artifact coming from a powerful culture, meaning the elites/ruling class are high level, there would be access to magic that would prevent deaths other than aging. I'm going with a one way order, death signifies the crown is passed to the next heir.


Offline rdanhenry

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,569
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • This sentence is false.
Re: Hereditary Monarchy......and Lifegiving
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2022, 10:17:05 AM »
There might be a waiting period, say three years, during which an heir is the "inheritor presumptive" of titles and properties. If the original holder is still dead, then inheritance passes completely and resurrection does not entitle reclamation of properties or position.
You might compare how various cultures treat "missing and presumed dead" cases.
It isn't just life-giving. What about self-willed undead? If the king becomes a lich, does the crown pass to his heir, or does he become king-eternal? What if the king's soul/spirit is transferred into a new vessel? Does it matter if this vessel is self-animating (e.g., a golem or construct) or something like a mirror, sword, or perhaps the palace itself?
Rolemaster: When you absolutely, positively need to have a chance of tripping over an imaginary dead turtle.

Offline EltonJ

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 378
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Hereditary Monarchy......and Lifegiving
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2022, 05:07:19 PM »
There might be a waiting period, say three years, during which an heir is the "inheritor presumptive" of titles and properties. If the original holder is still dead, then inheritance passes completely and resurrection does not entitle reclamation of properties or position.
You might compare how various cultures treat "missing and presumed dead" cases.
It isn't just life-giving. What about self-willed undead? If the king becomes a lich, does the crown pass to his heir, or does he become king-eternal? What if the king's soul/spirit is transferred into a new vessel? Does it matter if this vessel is self-animating (e.g., a golem or construct) or something like a mirror, sword, or perhaps the palace itself?

Good questions, yes.

Offline Vladimir

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 154
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Hereditary Monarchy......and Lifegiving
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2022, 06:43:11 PM »
  In a world where resurrecting the dead is possible (It was a rare, divine act in Middle Earth) then kings or the very influential would have contingency plans, in case of untimely death. As such, the entire legal system would be written to reflect that possibility.
  Imagine if one or more of the Nazgul, each a king in his own right, chose to claim the throne they once occupied, restored their respective kingdoms, and sided with their actual master? As any as nine additional factions would change
  When you have laws you will have people who find ways to find ways to exploit or abuse them. A king can change succession laws to conform to his plans to be a lich and rule forever, despite misgivings of the church, heirs or advisers.
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
-Lao Tzu