Author Topic: Why are Orcs irredeemably evil?  (Read 2372 times)

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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Why are Orcs irredeemably evil?
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2022, 01:10:36 PM »
Orcs (and the like) are only considered "Evil", because they are "Different and alien" to what is perceived as being "Good... or normally acceptable".

  I do not believe Tolkein's view of Orcs was so shallow so that Melkor's plan was merely to create a race that was simply different cosmetically.

 "Bin ich nicht ein Narr, daß ich mich schrecken ließ?--Es giebt ja schwarze Vögel in der Welt, warum denn nicht auch schwarze Menschen?" ("Am I not a fool, that I was terrified? There are certainly black birds in the world, so why then not also black humans?") -Papageno, after fleeing in terror at the sight of a Moorish slave, from “Die Zauberflöte” (The Magic Flute), Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.

  "Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar."
—J. R. R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion

  Orcs were not simply "ugly Elves" but creations in cruel parody and defiance of very creator of the universe, so their very creation was a deliberate act of evil. The nature of Orcs was almost self-destructive, as they hated everything, including other Orcs and reveled in cruel and abhorrent practices which went well beyond being noisy neighbors or eating well-done steaks.
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Offline EltonJ

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Re: Why are Orcs irredeemably evil?
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2022, 02:25:43 PM »
Orcs (and the like) are only considered "Evil", because they are "Different and alien" to what is perceived as being "Good... or normally acceptable".

But, remember, Human's aren't, and have never been, on the whole, paragons of "Good"... so it is only logical that there must always be exceptions and variations amongst the "other intelligent races" too, but it's the dominant culture that determines the ability for these exceptions to survive or thrive within "their" society that allows it..... so, in a culture that IS necessarily cruel and competitive will often quickly perceive anything other than "the norm" as abhorrent, dissuading such characteristics, attitudes etc.

They are only "alien" because we never met them.  And I know humans have never been paragons of "Good."  We keep trying to kill each other for no apparent reason.

Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Why are Orcs irredeemably evil?
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2022, 03:19:01 AM »
My point here was simply to say that although a "Race" maybe considered "Evil" within the context of literature, and when establishing "setting" within a game...  there are always exceptions to the "rule", and that often the regimes that these exceptions live within prevent any major changes to indicate otherwise. Therefore, it is OK to say that "all" Tolkienian Orcs were evil, as that was as intended by the author, but it doesn't mean to say that Orcs in other settings have to be the same, or must be different, to those in the books, it's a matter of choice. If I want to say that all Hobbits were cannibalistic savage barbarians, rather than homebody gardeners, then I could, in MY game.... but it must be remembered, that in literature, especially literature, it is often the exceptions that are the focus of the story.... Frodo and Bilbo were not typical Hobbits, who is to say that there isn't the possibility of orcs/goblins with equally diverse attitudes?

       

Offline MisterK

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Re: Why are Orcs irredeemably evil?
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2022, 06:27:22 AM »
It basically amounts to the difference between "plot devices" and "real people", does it not ?

"plot device" orcs can be evil as a race - they are in the setting for that effect.

"real people" orcs are evil only as individuals, and evil is a behaviour clashing with a set of morals (which is typically the one in which the PCs were raised). It means "bad for us" - from another point of view, the same behaviour might not be "evil".

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Why are Orcs irredeemably evil?
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2022, 05:55:29 PM »
It basically amounts to the difference between "plot devices" and "real people", does it not ?

"plot device" orcs can be evil as a race - they are in the setting for that effect.

"real people" orcs are evil only as individuals, and evil is a behaviour clashing with a set of morals (which is typically the one in which the PCs were raised). It means "bad for us" - from another point of view, the same behaviour might not be "evil".
  The fallacy of populating a world with "real people" races is that they are just humans with cosmetic differences, so why even bother having other races?
The Greeks portrayed their gods as very powerful humans -Prone to petty acts of evil, selfishness, greed and pride, while some cosmologies portray divinities as infallible, perfect beings.
  While any GM could create a world based on any theme, ranging from JRR Tolkein to RE Howard, to Lewis Carroll, most GMs have their own vision on what a fantasy world should be, which may include nonhuman races with nonhuman motivations. Races that are long lived see the world from perspectives that races with shorter life spans cannot comprehend. A race with an average life span of 30 years may have a difficult time imagining long-range planning and will see little value in it.
  Using "canned" races from other sources gives a GM time to flesh out a world without having to give a race its history and personality over thousands of years. I've had a GM do just that with over a hundred individual races, from individual appearances and variations, to societies, to general perceptions of other races so that every race could be played and a party of five players could play a different race over dozens of campaigns without duplicating a particular race. And yes, you could play a race that was universally detested and prone to violence, even acts of extreme evil.
 
       
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Why are Orcs irredeemably evil?
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2022, 03:00:02 AM »
The fallacy of populating a world with "real people" races is that they are just humans with cosmetic differences, so why even bother having other races?
I don't think it's a fallacy to assign traditions, customs, laws and sense of what is worthy and unworthy to a culture, and derive behaviour from that instead of from merely an idea of what opponents I need to give the PCs.
That's what I call "real people".
It has nothing to do with humans. It has nothing to do with them being playable races. It has everything to do with making suspension of disbelief easier and reinforcing the idea that morals are relative.

If the only thing I need is a plot device, then I create a plot device, not a culture.

It is not limited to races either. Individuals, groups, religions, cults, secret cabals, guilds, you name it. All social constructs can be made "real" by anchoring their behaviour in environment, history, emotions and beliefs.

Additionally, all GMs are human (as far as I know, at least). Their creations are limited by what they can comprehend and accept as globally consistent. As such, everything we create - races, settings, characters - is based on our own limitations as humans.

I won't even go into the "kissing a slug is no fun" trope, even if there is a grain of truth to it - the more human-like races are, the more meaningful social interactions they can have with one another, and this is a core part of character creation (RPGs being, essentially, social games).

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Why are Orcs irredeemably evil?
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2022, 01:05:45 PM »
The fallacy of populating a world with "real people" races is that they are just humans with cosmetic differences, so why even bother having other races?
Why are there different professions? Why don't we just say all horses are brown? Why aren't all the monsters just trolls? Why bother having players create backgrounds for their PCs? Variety.
They are obviously also not just cosmetic differences. Stat modifiers and things like adolescence skills make a difference too.
- Cory Magel

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Offline EltonJ

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Re: Why are Orcs irredeemably evil?
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2022, 02:46:54 PM »
The fallacy of populating a world with "real people" races is that they are just humans with cosmetic differences, so why even bother having other races?
Why are there different professions? Why don't we just say all horses are brown? Why aren't all the monsters just trolls? Why bother having players create backgrounds for their PCs? Variety.
They are obviously also not just cosmetic differences. Stat modifiers and things like adolescence skills make a difference too.

Variety is the spice of life . . . it's also the spice of a campaign.  When I did my horde campaign, I borrowed cultural details from WoW.  Just so that the orcs aren't irredeemably evil.  I also included a number of "Horde" races in the campaign.  Jungle trolls, gnolls, forest trolls, minotaurs, deer-men, drow, and carnosaurians.  I wanted variety.  Although the drow joined because one of my campaigns included the drow of one drow city state joining.

I could have borrowed cultural details from the Elder Scrolls (Skyrim) as well, since the orcs there aren't evil. I'm currently playing an orc in Skyrim, and I'm enjoying it.  I'm just frustrated with the orcs being portrayed as evil, as cultural details are constantly borrowed from Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.  The Elder Scrolls, World of Warcraft, and Eberron subverted the Tolkien trope.

In the original Monster Manual for AD&D, orcs were portrayed as being violent and stupid.  The truth is true for Rolemaster 2/Classic.  As a GM, I can make my own world that subverts the trope.  It felt frustrating because orcs are thought to be monsters, and are portrayed as such for most fantasy roleplaying games.

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Why are Orcs irredeemably evil?
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2022, 07:03:12 PM »
Quote
Variety
  I don't require it. I could run a game with every PC and NPC as identical clones and make it work.
 
  My players look at all NPC as targets of varying threat levels. The difference between one NPC and another is the order in which they are killed, and much the same for the PCs.
  Declaring one race evil just raises their rank in the killing order for some players, even if they aren't really evil.

  Orcs are subject to interpretation in a variety of games and it really doesn't matter for fantasy races, even playable ones. If you need a race to die in droves, Orcs fit that role fine for most people. My players have no qualms about killing regular humans without reason.

 My friend divided Elves into several sub races which ranged from serious, esoteric intellectuals to scatterbrained, frivolous children. That works for me, too.
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Why are Orcs irredeemably evil?
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2022, 02:16:03 AM »
Quote
Variety
  I don't require it. I could run a game with every PC and NPC as identical clones and make it work.
Our groups would find that boring as hell.

Quote
My players look at all NPC as targets of varying threat levels.
If all your NPC and PC's were identical clones there would be no 'varying'.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Hurin

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Re: Why are Orcs irredeemably evil?
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2022, 09:53:59 AM »

In the original Monster Manual for AD&D, orcs were portrayed as being violent and stupid.  The truth is true for Rolemaster 2/Classic.  As a GM, I can make my own world that subverts the trope.  It felt frustrating because orcs are thought to be monsters, and are portrayed as such for most fantasy roleplaying games.

Yes, though one unusual thing about Rolemaster is that it always included 'evil' races as playable races in its core books. It describes Orcs as 'without exception cannibalistic, bloodthirsty and cruel' (though noting that greater Orcs are capable of reason), and Trolls are 'stupid' and hate all other creatures. Yet there they are in the core books: comprising 3 of the 11 races offered.

Does this reflect a more relativistic moral view? Rolemaster does have good and evil spells, but does not have alignments or heavens in the DnD sense. But it might also just reflect the fact that Rolemaster was a bit more closely tied to Middle Earth (the list of races itself goes back to RM1 Character Law, which came out about the same time the Tolkien license was acquired, IIRC). 
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline MisterK

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Re: Why are Orcs irredeemably evil?
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2022, 10:47:56 AM »
Does this reflect a more relativistic moral view?
I don't think so. It *does* give you the opportunity to play "evil" characters (races, and spells), but it is still based on a concept of absolute evil (and absolute good, though this is less obvious - the 'Light' and 'Dark' channeling spell lists are indicative of absolutes).

the lack of alignment is more convincing. In fact, if the "evil" qualifier for the evil spell lists were removed, along with the "light" and "dark" qualifiers for the relevant lists (and the aura color reading, now that I think of it), most of the absolutes would be disposed of, I think.

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Why are Orcs irredeemably evil?
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2022, 11:36:56 AM »
If all your NPC and PC's were identical clones there would be no 'varying'.
  The players determine that on their own, even among identical clones as all NPCs may as well be identical, as my players look at all NPCs as enemies, even the friendly ones.
  In our last session:
GM: "It appears that Bob is being subject to some form of mind control."
John: "I kill him."
GM: "Okay. He has no defense. Bob, make another character."

The party necromancer animated Bob and had him dig his own grave...Watching, the party roasted Bob, commenting that Zombie Bob accomplished more than live Bob ever did for the group.
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
-Lao Tzu

Offline EltonJ

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Re: Why are Orcs irredeemably evil?
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2022, 04:36:11 PM »
If all your NPC and PC's were identical clones there would be no 'varying'.
  The players determine that on their own, even among identical clones as all NPCs may as well be identical, as my players look at all NPCs as enemies, even the friendly ones.
  In our last session:
GM: "It appears that Bob is being subject to some form of mind control."
John: "I kill him."
GM: "Okay. He has no defense. Bob, make another character."

The party necromancer animated Bob and had him dig his own grave...Watching, the party roasted Bob, commenting that Zombie Bob accomplished more than live Bob ever did for the group.

That's is funny, but also macabre.  Was the party powerful enough to break the enchantment?  It seems your players are more willing to kill than to save.

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Why are Orcs irredeemably evil?
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2022, 11:10:44 PM »
That's is funny, but also macabre.  Was the party powerful enough to break the enchantment?  It seems your players are more willing to kill than to save.
  The idea of breaking the enchantment never even crossed our minds...and Bob was useless, and never bothered to learn RM.
More willing to kill? Yup. The Paladin of the group is the next one -he's been threatening the necromancer without bothering to discuss his problem with the necromancer. The good/evil rubbish means nothing to my character and threatening violence over harmless actions is childish. Our Post Expiration Labor and Resource Reclamation Engineer (Necromancer) has proven to be of great value with his craft and imaginative uses for animated creatures, while the Paladin has just been a bossy grunt.

After he digs his grave, I'm going to order him to lay in it face down while we cover him with dirt.
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
-Lao Tzu

Offline EltonJ

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Re: Why are Orcs irredeemably evil?
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2022, 11:42:03 AM »
Well, if your players are having fun, then I should I criticize?

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Why are Orcs irredeemably evil?
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2022, 04:52:53 PM »
Well, if your players are having fun, then I should I criticize?
  Everybody has an opinion. I may or may not agree but gaming is subjective. I've been war gaming since the 1960s and playing RPGs since 1974, so I've seen my share of games and GM styles. I've had a GM who could not do anything without a die roll table and one who would tell you how your character would RP situations; I played with GMs who couldn't run a campaign without a canned scenario and with brilliant world builders, who would spent weeks preparing maps, NPCs and storylines for the worlds they created, one whose world became the basis for a computer game.
  I've had control freak GMs and I've even run a campaign as a parody of a controlling GM's campaign, which allowed the players to do anything they wanted to do, as long as they were aware of the possible consequences.

  Some GMs run Orcs like their other monsters: Suicidal wandering damage. Orcs may be less intelligent but not self-destructive. If they have the force of numbers, they may try to overwhelm an enemy. Lacking numbers, they may opt for ambush or even keep the enemy under observation to see if they they may be vulnerable at some point. Sapient NPCs should act with sufficient intelligence to value self-preservation and the ability to plan. That also means that they should have an idea when to run away.
  Monsters and animals lack the level of forethought possessed by sapient beings so act with animal motivations, such as hunger, fear, territoriality. etc. Unless under some strong motivation, like extreme hunger, maternal or territorial nature, few animals will fight to the death.   
  Smart opponents usually make for a more interesting adventure...for me, as a player...as a GM, my players may as well be roleplaying an arcade game. They may a well be Tolkein's version of Orcs...   

  The current RM campaign is a struggle between players that look for ways to exploit rules and the GM, who works to counter exploits, mostly by restricting professions and spell lists. The real hassle is that arguing with the GM eats into valuable game time which has been limited even more since the GM is recovering from a stroke and his roommate just had a leg amputated last week.
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
-Lao Tzu