Author Topic: Revised Profession: Healer(s)  (Read 4697 times)

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Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2022, 01:00:53 PM »
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This all seems more like an ideological objection to healing-centric professions than the result of actually playing one and finding it too limited
Having not run a healing-centric PC in one of my parties, only as an occasional NPC, I won't disagree with that assessment. I will say though that the appeal of having additional Base lists specifically tailored to your character concept is appealing, and with healing spells unnecessarily taking up 5-6 spots, it perhaps steers adventurers away. Some good fixes proposed in this thread though.

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[The Healer is] kind of screwed on spell selection compared with the Sorcerer, in that a bunch of the Channeling lists are healing-based and hence pretty redundant.
That's part of my issue with the Healer being tied to Channeling, in that it exacerbates one of the key issues I have with the Realms as they are currently configured, which is too much overlap in terms of spell abilities. All the more reason for a Healer to have some class-specific diversity.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2022, 01:13:59 PM »
To be honest, I haven't played RMU and don't plan to - either the game is moving away from my comfort zone, or I am moving away from the RM way of doing things, or both, but the number of rule points I would have to ignore, starting with the skill list, basically told me this was not the game for me anymore.

So all my comments are based on the previous editions, as well as the definite lack of healing professions in the characters that have been played in the campaigns I GMed and played in since 1986 (a grand total of one character over 9 campaigns). But there is obviously a bias in the way we play - campaigns are definitely *not* combat-intensive.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2022, 01:18:51 PM »
... for instance, do we really need a flow stop *and* a clotting spell ?

I agree with you there; I think those two could be combined to open up more and different possibilities for a healer class. It's not that Flow Stop and Clotting are literally redundant, since a Flowstopped target can't move at all while a Clotted target can, but they are similar enough that we probably don't loose too much if we combine them.

In fact, I think you might actually be able to combine all three types of bleeding-stopping spells (Clotting, Flowstop, and Cut Repair) by making them scale for severity. You could for example have a single low level spell that heals 1 hp/round of bleeding outright, heals up to 2 with the one-hour restriction on movement, and heals up to 3 with the permanent restriction on movement (i.e. until you cast a Light Flesh Wound Relief spell). Then, a little higher up on the list, you have a spell that scales to 2 hp/round healed outright, up to 3 healed with the one-hour restriction, and up to 4 with no movement. This would reduce three types of spells to one, but retain the idea that healers gradually get better at healing more severe bleeding. It would also open up many slots on the Blood Law list for other types of spells.

As a side note, and as I noted in another thread, I'd much rather have a 'Light Flesh Wound Healing' spell at low levels in the Blood Law type lists, since casters don't have any way to heal a light flesh wound at all on that list currently (they have to wait till level 8 to get 'Medium Flesh Wound Relief').
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Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2022, 01:43:45 PM »
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As a side note, and as I noted in another thread, I'd much rather have a 'Light Flesh Wound Healing' spell at low levels in the Blood Law type lists, since casters don't have any way to heal a light flesh wound at all on that list currently (they have to wait till level 8 to get 'Medium Flesh Wound Relief')
@Hurin - Agree 100%. Your scaling mechanic is definitely a little simpler than mine, but the premise is the same. All due respect to our devs, but that's something I intend to smooth out in my game. I understand the logic behind all three versions, but the game is gritty enough without the burden of three different types of bleed recovery.

@MisterK, the more I read some of the insights you and others share here, the more I understand and to a degree share that viewpoint, but I'm committed to trying to find a happy medium to try to blend the old and the new in such a way that it finds some middle ground that appeals to my group and others as well. There is a beauty to RM/RMU in how it approaches character individualization, so I continue to plug along...

In case anyone is interested in how I've broken down the Professions into each Realm, there are some minor adjustments that might help understand my position on Healing professions. Red is under development, and purple is credit to Hurin for his lists from the Armsmaster and Warrior Mage... they are excellent!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R-O2xUHvlRKsoxLTkI-gUQtl6BVJsBWU/view?usp=sharing

And also a breakdown of what lists each Sphere has access to, in order to give each profession more individual flair:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1necJVhFJWqUKFWw535Fqdu5941Ik6hJV/view?usp=sharing

This goes back to my feeling that one dedicated healing profession is probably enough, with others being able to dip a toe if they desire, provided the Healer has some other class-specific tricks in his bag. Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse; you all are giving me a lot of inspiration for how to approach this though, so thanks.
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2022, 03:59:02 PM »
Just a few words because some people still think people having issues with the Healer or Lay Healer is because of their passive role in combat.
This is NOT the case with my group. As I mentioned, some (well, at least two) of my players have no issues with playing a support character, with no utility in combat. Their main issue is that the Healer and Lay Healer have all of their base spell lists devoted about one single focus: healing. One of them used to play a Houri, whose spell lists may be useful in social, information gathering, infiltration, assassination, con, investigation, and more situations… though not much in combat. A Healer? Only in healing situations, and only for healing.
I'm a bit annoyed by jdale's summarising about how people not liking the Healer/Lay Healer as considering "healers aren't fun" (though I think I understand his POV), as to me it implies such people are just merely very combat-focused and unable to play any profession not combat-focused. From my experience, even as a GM, it's better (RM2-wise) for have a pure or hybrid spell caster take the Arcane list "Arcane Healing" than to devote six whole spell lists to healing. But, once again, I'm playing RM2, where the Healer has one WHOLE SPELL LIST, "Transferring Ways", that can be replaced by one single background option (and more, since the option is actually more powerful), "Spatial skills"! Hard to make the Healer popular in my group…
From what I can rdanhenry's post, mayhap the Healer could have as easily or ever more easily his spell lists than a semi (Paladin or Monk) would, so these at least wouldn't be any longer hard concurrents. But, compared to other pure or hybrid spell users who have their six base lists dedicated to different matters, he still has the short end of the stick, as he still has to devote his to the same matter.

Anyway, to add to the discussion, since the Healer is health-focused, it could be interesting to keep him in this way whilst giving him more options than pure healing by giving him injury/health buffs, such as disease protection (you may reroll or are immune against diseases for some time), poison protection, HPs buff (temporary HPs), critical resistance (temporarily lowering the levels of criticals), ignoring injury effects (such as penalty, acting even when HPs are below 0, or when an organ is destroyed), fear or lowering mind-effect protection, mind-affecting protection, which are not even "new" spell effects but exist in some spell lists in some RM version at some time. Giving him access to herb spells could work as well, though some may complain it infringes on the Animist's field of expertise (but then, as the Animist's list is a base list anyway, so, except if a group also as an Animist mayhap a less powerful version of "Herb Mastery could work?)
Analysis spells would fit him as well, allowing him to determine the health of a given target, his old injuries, current diseases, strength and weaknesses, physical and psychological.

In other words, don't make the Healer just someone that heals, and that's all, but turn him into an expert in anything body and mind health condition related matters, as well as every substance that may affect them. I mean, you know you should consult your pharmacist with unknown mushrooms, don't you? Because he knows about which one are poisonous. Because health experts supposedly know about poisonous substances and all? Well, shouldn't the medical expert that is the Healer has also have intensive knowledge about diseases, poisons, and other dangerous or lethal materials?

…of course, technically speaking, the Healers, because they know so well about how the body works, how it may be injured and how an injury may affect it, are in fact the most lethal people, for it means they know exactly where to hit, how to hit, or how to poison someone according to his body condition, but, heh. Crime novels would usually make them the best (worst?) culprits after all, as not only would they know the exact way to poison someone according to his condition (allergies, etc.), they'd also know how long it takes for the substance to be eliminated from the body, which effects could pass for "natural" causes, how to get said poison from natural sources, etc. :p
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2022, 04:19:01 PM »
IMHO the healer-type professions might be a bit boring in a game where combat seldom takes place because the main focus of the profession then remains more or less useless. In more combat-heavy games - like outs - the healer professions can be fun. And there's also a lot of Open and Closed Spell Lists to use on other occasions, where healing isn't needed.

Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2022, 05:42:56 PM »
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Well, shouldn't the medical expert that is the Healer has also have intensive knowledge about diseases, poisons, and other dangerous or lethal materials?
Absolutely. I'm reminded of the scene from Terminator 2 when the T-800 is treating their injuries and tells them he has detailed files on the human anatomy (to make him a more efficient killer). Imagine being able to walk into a bar and get everyone drunk within minutes by affecting everyone's metabolism. A great non-combat possibility. Tons of additional ideas extra lists/spells here:
I like the idea of every profession have at least 9 Base lists to pick from (I'm not sure what the official ruling is but I allow characters to pick 6) in order to promote diversity within the profession. That means
  • 3 lists devoted to healing - Surface & Blood / Bone & Muscle / Nerve & Organ (spiffball notion of how to combine them
  • Prosthetics
  • Mental and/or Disease Healing
  • Buffs
  • Body Damaging (think akin to a Sorcerer "undoing" the body)
  • Pharmaceuticals/Herbs/etc
  • Damage Prevention
  • Evolution/Shapechanging
  • And lots of other possibilities...
Just working on the compression for the first three is turning into a project already...

Like you mention OLF, I think it's less about healing not being fun.
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Offline B Hanson

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2022, 07:38:03 PM »
At this point, it's a vague recollection, but I analyzed these issues when building BASiL. Certainly, I didn't have all the answers or all ideas, but it was based on SW centric viewpoint.

1. Magical healing EFFECTS should be immediate. That's what differentiates magic from mundane. Right?
2. RM combat systems require a detailed healing system. You can't have one without the other in real-time.
3. Channeling healing has to rely upon the host. A Cleric/Healer can't channel heal a target of another opposing god?
4. PP cost VS healing rate should be consistent. I looked into a "Group Buff" healing, but the PP vs Healing rate doesn't make sense.
5. Given that, I think that the healing spells are weak at best.
6. Peter talked about this a lot on the Rolemasterblog. He had healers in his group.
7. Healers could reverse the spell effects. That would address the healer/hurter dynamic mentioned.

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Offline Hurin

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #48 on: January 09, 2022, 11:19:49 AM »
Minor idea building upon previous discussions: if healers have the best knowledge of anatomy and anatomical processes, then they might get spells that buff skills such as Subdual (they know where to hit) and perhaps even social skills (they can detect the blushing when the Thief tries to lie).
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Offline jdale

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #49 on: January 09, 2022, 12:21:27 PM »
>1. Magical healing EFFECTS should be immediate. That's what differentiates magic from mundane. Right?

This really depends on what you want the rhythm of combat to be. That there are types of injuries that cannot be fixed during combat has real tactical consequences and makes combat more dangerous. Instant healing of everything makes it more like a simple attrition battle until one side's bag of points is empty (whether that bag is full of hit points or healer PP).

The slower healing also raises the stakes if the party must go through several battles without time for recovery. And it shifts some of the healer's job to outside the combat, giving them more time during the combat to do other things.

That there are also effects that can be healed immediately (stun, fatigue, hits) means that healing is still tactically important on the battlefield. I think it's a good balance. But, the healers also have their other spell lists and we're already playing with some buff and offense spells mixed into the healing lists (e.g. Muscle Law has Strength, Endurance, and Spasm spells that all affect muscles in different ways), so they have other things to do too.

I'm playing with a slightly different mix of spell lists but the main healer in the game we play more often does have Blood Mastery, Muscle Mastery, Bone Mastery, Nerve & Organ Mastery, Concussion Mastery, and also Life Mastery which is healing-adjacent. He also has 7 other spell lists (not all to his level, which is currently 8th). There's also an alchemist (in the potion-making sense) who is a secondary healer and a true master of the (non-magical) art of cauterization so that's an adjunct.
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Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2022, 08:57:29 PM »
Disclaimer: This is a very rough draft and first attempt at combining some of the elements of Healer spells into one list: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FFuZMq7y_ieOAqnMBhnJF4GMOsqsI5gL/view?usp=sharing

A few notes:
  • My thinking is that if we reduce the number of injury treatment lists to three, we can group them as superficial healing (Surface Ways), tissue and bone healing (Flesh & Bone Ways), and deep injury healing (Nerve & Organ Ways).
  • This new sample list combines "flesh" and bone; Flesh Healing spells were brought over from Surface Ways, and combined with Muscle and Bone.
  • The scaling system is not yet balanced, but the theory behind it is that you first choose the damage type you want to heal, and then can add elements to the spell to empower it. Some examples - You cast Muscle Healing VIII
    • You could heal a -60 muscle injury (6 options) and reduce the recovery time from hours to rounds (2 options), on yourself, OR
    • You could heal a -40 injury (4 options) and reduce the recovery time from hours to rounds (2 options), on a target up to 50' away (2 options), OR
    • You could heal a -40 injury (2 options) on a target up to 25' feet away (1 option), and another -20 injury (1 option) on another target (2 options + extra PP) up to 50' away (2 options)
Whew... this scaling mechanic preserves the idea that a Healer is more effective at healing himself, but gives him the versatility to heal others and choose whether to focus on healing more quickly at the cost of effectiveness.

Thoughts? I think may be a bit clunky, but I rather like the ability to mix and match effects, and it allows us to free up room on Surface Ways for some spells like Regeneration and other miscellaneous related spells.
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Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2022, 01:22:02 PM »
Now that I've begun to revamp the lists themselves, I'm coming across some difficulties, primarily because of some of the "healing equations." This is particularly noticeable with the spells that heal hit points. Let me elucidate...
As I mentioned before, there are essentially three levels of power with the three major magical healing classes, excluding those semis that get healing lists. Druids/Clerics/etc have access to the Law lists, which are the least powerful in terms of scaling. The Lay Healer is higher in the order with his Mastery lists, and is/should be able to heal more effectively at a lower level. Finally, the Healer is the apex medic with his Ways lists. the counterbalance to his expertise is that his spells are ranged to self, but can overcome this through Transference, gratefully revamped in RMU. Here are some comparisons:
  • Law/Closed Channeling spells - Medium Muscle Relief (4th lvl) - Heals a -40 penalty with a bonus to the recovery roll, accelerating recovery time slightly.
  • Mastery/Lay Healer spells - Medium Muscle Relief (2nd lvl) - Heals a -40 penalty with a bonus to the recovery roll, accelerating recovery time slightly. Same as above, but two levels earlier.
  • Ways/Healer spells - Severe Muscle Relief (2nd lvl) - Heals a any penalty with a bonus to the recovery roll, accelerating recovery time slightly. No Medium option, but heals much more effectively at the same level as a Lay Healer, but limited to self, unless supplemented with a 2nd level Transference spell.
Ok... this seems like a decent power progression and even spreads out a bit at higher levels. Once Healing versions of the spells are accessed, the recovery is reduced to hours rather than days with the Closed versions having Medium Muscle Healing at 14th level, the Lay Healer at 11th level, and the Healer at 6th level. Makes sense to me.

Bleeds and healing hit points are more complicated:
  • Law/Closed versions can cast Heal I (5 hp) at 2nd level, and Heal VII (35 hp) at 11th level.
  • Mastery/Lay Healers can cast Heal I (5 hp) at 2nd level, and Heal X (50 hp) at 11th level.
  • Ways/Healer versions can cast Heal II (10 hp) at 1st level, and Heal X (50 hp) at 12th level.
Not to nitpick, but the progression seems to be off. At low level, Channelers can heal hits as effectively as a Lay Healer, and only moderately less at 11th level. At the same time, the Healer comes out of the gates healing more effectively, but heals equal to an 11th level Lay Healer at 12th level, and still needs a 2nd spell to heal others. This formula seems problematic to me.

As I look over my incomplete sample list, and start to plan for the Surface/Blood Ways combo list, I begin to wonder:
  • Is the Healer a necessary archetype, or are my mechanics too complicated and would it be better just to make a more powerful Lay Healer? We could still use my scaling mechanics but remove the "cast beyond self" option and make it intrinsic.
  • I like the concept of a Healer in my game, and think the power differentiation needs to be tweaked in order to preserve their relative roles.
All that being said, I still feel like the Lay Healer and Healer are somewhat redundant, hence my feeling that some new mechanics can separate the Healers from those who simply have access to the Law lists. Thoughts?
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Offline jdale

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2022, 01:58:02 PM »
The progression of scaled spells is rarely perfect, because you are trying to not only fit those scaled spells but also fit in a variety of other effects and they all end up competing for slots. It's not unusual that you have three spells that really all ought to be 3rd level and none that should be 4th or 5th, but something has to give way. I'm sure you've experienced that yourself. So the progressions on the list may not be exactly right for every effect, and I wouldn't worry about exactly matching everything.

Lay Healer should be better than channeling, simply because it is base lists vs open/closed lists. Healers are better than Lay Healers because those spells are self-only, and healing wounds is a two-step process. (On the other hand the subconscious spells are an advantage, so that's a factor too.)

Personally, I think the two professions are distinct concepts, and merging them ends up making something that is better than either -- you get the advantages of healing other people, plus the advantage of lower spell levels (equals lower PP costs), and the advantage of subconscious spells -- while losing the distinct flavors (e.g. lay healers can be secular; healers are absurdly self-sacrificing). That's a harder balancing issue than one or the other.
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Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2022, 02:57:52 PM »
I agree with that assessment, and the notion of where spells should be relative to each other is certainly a tough balancing act, aside from the added trouble of balancing them against other professions. It's less of a critique and more of an observation. That being said, I think that the use of new mechanics might be a way to offer that balance with a more formulaic method.

I fully acknowledge that some of my opinions are really tied to my own vision of the game, and while I do think that the Lay Healer and the Healer are distinct concepts, my experience with players avoiding healing professions makes me wonder if there aren't ways to simply combine the two for the purposes of streamlining and address some of the other issues that arise in terms of build diversity and class appeal.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2022, 12:03:01 AM »
The progression of scaled spells is rarely perfect, because you are trying to not only fit those scaled spells but also fit in a variety of other effects and they all end up competing for slots. It's not unusual that you have three spells that really all ought to be 3rd level and none that should be 4th or 5th, but something has to give way. I'm sure you've experienced that yourself. So the progressions on the list may not be exactly right for every effect, and I wouldn't worry about exactly matching everything.
That's an astute observation and one that could easily be solved (for all lists, mind you, not merely healing lists) by tranforming linear spell lists into spell trees. The effect on development would be the same (you still have to learn all spells) but each tree could have more than one spell per level slot and could develop on more than one axis. Most existing lists already have a multi-branch feel, only "linearised" because of the spell list convention.

I was actually surprised that no one decided to do it for RMU. The idea is not really new either - I think I saw a game from the 80s that included it already.

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2022, 04:39:51 AM »
I fully acknowledge that some of my opinions are really tied to my own vision of the game, and while I do think that the Lay Healer and the Healer are distinct concepts, my experience with players avoiding healing professions makes me wonder if there aren't ways to simply combine the two for the purposes of streamlining and address some of the other issues that arise in terms of build diversity and class appeal.
IMO, just do what you feel is the correct approach: in the end, you're not writing for RMU, or any "official" work, but according to your "own vision of the game", which is the very reason why you even started all of these. Do something with what you'd feel satisfied.
Also, you're eventually writing base spell lists for pretty much a new profession, so you may as well merge the Lay Healer and Healer concepts into, as you wrote, a "stronger" version of the Lay Healer. You won't be able to satisfy everyone, anyway, so satisfy yourself first.
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Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2022, 08:36:15 AM »
@OLF - Very true. I suppose part of my seemingly unending discourse is to try to understand the motivations and thinking behind some of the concepts in RMU. I understand that it’s trying to blend old versions with a newly streamlined system, but it seems to me that some areas are deeply entrenched in some of the past mechanics that were problematic. Again, less of a critique and more of an observation; some people like the spell lists and their model of power progression. To be fair, I like using it, but tend to think that’s because it’s just what I’m comfortable with after so many years.

@MisterK - I love the spell tree idea; you actually see it a decent amount in video games, and it allows for great development concepts like blending professions or having magic based on elements or schools and having to combine them for truly powerful effects. My only issue is that if I did this for Healers, it would require essentially revamping the entire magic system too, which I’m not quite ready for… YET.
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Offline tbigness

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2022, 06:32:44 PM »
I find the Concept of HARP spells a better fix than spell slots. It allows customization and change of parameters without going overboard on cost due to spell slot allocation.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2022, 08:36:28 PM »
I really like the way the HARP spell system works, however it would need the profession uniqueness (Base lists) and selection that RM has for me to want to fully utilize it.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2022, 09:21:09 PM »
I spent a lot of time with the magic system in GURPS which has tree-style spell development (and some scaling) without levels, and it made me like Rolemaster's lists even more. Picking and choosing what you can do makes a focused character that can do what they think they need to do, but lists end up giving you a bunch of extra tools that you never know when they will come in handy. It feels more magical to me, that you have studied and picked up on the bits and pieces that perhaps were only noted in the margins. You're not just a person with some spells, you're actually a mage.

Scaling instead of a list also undermines the sense that every single rank will get you something new (because probably some won't).
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