Topic: Why magic is too powerful

[Nders]

As I wrote, "if they do, they would use a normal way to find out the culprit, rather than an expensive spellcasting."
Nowadays, we care about someone being sick. However, it doesn't mean that the beggar who break his leg will be sent in the best hospital of the country, with the best equipment of all hospitals of the country.

OT I know but here in Denmark this is practically the case as I suspect it is in most of the north

[providence13]

Rasyr,
In the Elves and SD topic, we did talk about this a bit, and I hope I'm not preaching duality here (talking out both sides of my mouth ) when I say....I agree.

With that said, IMHO, "Primitives" may not have access to other peoples language, except Nomads perhaps.
Learning another language gives on an entirely new way of thinking. The words may not even translate and now you have to change how you look at things to accommodate this altered perception.
You could also do this with some "altered states medicine", but I think language is as good a reference as any.

With new ways of thinking and exposure to new cultures and an exchange of ideas, peoples minds develop and the higher chance that something like Mentalism can occur. This might sound wacky to others with different opinions... and that's ok. I'm not inflexible in this belief, it's just what I got so far.

But yes, I hear what you're saying about hunters (vs farmers).

[rdanhenry]

This assumes that spellcasting is expensive. This is probably not true for the state, as it would keep spellcasters as employees or at least on retainer for cheap service calls.

"Spellcasters" have always been expensive for the state in real life to mantain: if you're the only one in the country that can predict when the next eclipse will come, you'll surely make sure you'll get paid a lot for that!

Spellcasters for the state are a lot like corporate lawyers. They're expensive to have but even more expensive not to have, so you go ahead and pay high salaries to have them. Once you have employed them, you are wasting money anytime they are not working. That's one reason why cease and desist letters are common and one reason spells will be used for major crimes.

[RandalThor]

Y'know, I started to read another book set in the Steven Erikkson setting (it is by his gaming buddy I think) that sort of "shows" the difference between magic-users and non-magic users.

In that world the best swordman would tread lightly when dealing with a moderately skilled magic-user. All the most powerful individuals of that world are users of magic in one sense or another. This makes a certain degree of sense to me. If you want to be a person that will be able to "shake the Pillars of Heaven" (Jack Burton, Big Trouble in Little China) you will need to learn some-type of magic. Otherwise you just can't compete.

It is sort of like the Jedi in the d6 rules as well. Starting out you have to put some of your attribute dice into your force skills. That makes you less capable compared to other characters. And, since you need to keep training in the force skills using the same points the other characters get, you will be overall less powerful than the others - right up to the point you start getting good scores in your force skills (around the 5D mark). Then you will start to outshine your companions until you far outstrip them.

I think magic is powerful because is should be. Is it too powerful? Only you can decide that.

[ironmaul]

The key factor is setting and how magic works in it. Unfortunately, as I've said before, RM's spell system is not adequate to accommodate various forms of magic related settings. Even if a revision is made, I think I would be very hard pressed to purchase it. I think because of Spell Law(RMSS) it really put me off continuing GM'ing with casters, it was so screwed up. So I'll continue making up my own spell system to deal with my needs.

[Arioch]

In that world the best swordman would tread lightly when dealing with a moderately skilled magic-user. All the most powerful individuals of that world are users of magic in one sense or another. This makes a certain degree of sense to me.

Yes, in that world. And, if I was playing in such a setting I would probably make sure that either all PCs or none of them are magic users.
Why?
Because I'm not writing a novel, I'm playing a game with my friends, and I want to make sure that all of them have the same opportunities of the others. Because the goal of the game is not only that of creating a story (or simulating a world, etc...), but it's that of doing that together. Playing the sidekick is just boring, at least imho.
Secondly, yes in some setting magic users may be more powerful that non users, but why assume that this is true in all possible settings? I can think lots of worlds/settings where the situation is the opposite, for example.
And why assume that it's true in a game in which you can choose if playing a magic user or a non-user? Would you choose to play the normal guy in a superhero campaign?

It is sort of like the Jedi in the d6 rules as well. Starting out you have to put some of your attribute dice into your force skills. That makes you less capable compared to other characters. And, since you need to keep training in the force skills using the same points the other characters get, you will be overall less powerful than the others - right up to the point you start getting good scores in your force skills (around the 5D mark). Then you will start to outshine your companions until you far outstrip them.

This made me remember when we played a short series of adventures set in the Star Wars setting (using GURPS IIRC). Everyone wanted to be a jedi. And not because jedis were more powerful than other PCs (everyone had the same number of points for PC generation), but simply because jedis are the Star Wars setting...

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Depends on the transactional currency. . . .if the priests want worshippers/souls more than money, then healing the begger might be a bigger priority to them than it would be to an HMO account manager. . .still depends on how common magic is. . .

(...)

If the city watch knew they could just call a priest to find the killer in a trice, I'd think they'd do so. . .beyond the logic that most bodies tend to find their way to a priest at some point before they're buried/burned/whatever.

But if magic is so common that any priest would be able to cast a spell determining how a man died, then the magic to cloud such a spell would be just as common. Even if such a magic wasn't common "as in every priest in any village", but merely as "it happens more often than not", then I have no doubt that it'd be common knowledge to know the limits of such spells and the ways to exploit the limits (such as burning the corpse, if ashes aren't enough for the spell to be cast). Thinking otherwise would be underestimating the ability of man to break laws, especially in order to kill his fellow --and if there's something that History taught us, it's that there's no matter in which man always has been as ingenuous as to find a way to hurt his fellow.

[mibsweden]

Maybe I haven't played enough different settings or read enough of different books, but I cannot seem to remember a setting/book where the spell user was not the most powerful people/beings.

[Marc R]

Plenty of them, usually in the low magic end. . . .but the rest fall into the "Stab them in the back and casters die too."

Like, in conan, casting is usually very nerfed, but even the earth shaking caster types seem to eventually blow it, and either combust themselves or get beheaded/impaled by Conan or some other non-caster.

Similar in Lankhamar.

In Thieves World casters generally weak, other than the Janet Morris stuff, but even there they're mostly dead. (Mostly dead due to Tempus' or his sister killing them admitedly.)

Cook has super-super-mages. . . and somehow the non casters seem to outthink them and either dark knight them or get in their heads and send them off into a self destructive tizzy.

Erickson seems to have a similar tone actually. . . .and actually, at that tech level, there's a lot more leveling. . . Fiddler and a load of Moranth munitions takes no crap from any mage. . .and I can think of a number of instances where mages or highly magical creatures were either killed by one non-caster, or dog piled by a horde of non-casters. (BTW, the game system in Erickson in GURPS, I found out in an introduction to a Cook book he wrote a while back.)

I think, in the end that "High Magic" tends to have a number of leveling effects, which in fiction are so common they could almost be called "standards":

1) Casters, as they get more powerful, tend to draw powerful enemies non casters never have to deal with.

2) due to #1 casters get more and more paranoid and isolated. . .non casters have armies of friends to draw on.

3) Somehow whenever magic makes a mage omnipotent and omnicient, they combust themselves, at anything below that, you can kill them by stabbing them in the back.

4) Anti magical materials exist for non casters to pick up and use, that a caster would never touch.

5) Magic items often level the playing field.

I think Erickson is a perfect demonstration of the effect I'd mentioned earlier. . .how often in scenes with the Bridgeburners is Quick Ben either: Menacing someone with his magic, but not actually doing anything, or hiding and observing, or engaging in subtle magic that doesn't even become apparent until the end of the book. . .

That's how casters seem to work out in play. . .they are massive "Potential" power they use to scare people, but using that power will make them weak, so they horde PP like their life depends on it. . .and if they engage in a public life they get hounded to use their power or targeted by enemies. . . .

If you're playing a classic "Dungeon Crawl" that never ends, and this is just about spot damage potential, I cannot deny that magic tops the pile there. . . .out of combat they tend to have a lot of potential too, but yet somehow in a roleplaying centered game, the casters seem to ALWAYS have serious disadvantages. . . .generally people fear them, or are suspicious of their motives. . . .take a look at how much crap Gandalf takes from everyone about that, or Merlin, or Ben Kenobi. . . .nothing is more amusing in roleplay than playing the super 30th level mage and telling the king he has to do something about the demon gate about to open in the palace basement, and in response being forbidden to do anything about it and escorted out of the palace under guard. . .do you fight the king's men or allow the demon gate to open? Either way everyone is going to end up hating on you.

[mocking bird]

Maybe I haven't played enough different settings or read enough of different books, but I cannot seem to remember a setting/book where the spell user was not the most powerful people/beings.

Skeeve comes to mind...

And in Erickson you have Whiskeyjack, Toblakai (but he does have some cool abilities), Apsalar (as Sorry she did but I don't believe she retained magical abilities) and Kalam who are all non-magic users yet are very saucy and pivotal characters.  Whiskyjack for example duels a very powerful spellcaster/destroyer of worlds and without getting into details (I forgot how to spoiler alert) handles himself very well...

Regarding powerful magic users merely threatening people, LotR Gandalf does about four things - summons an eagle, fights the Balrog (all behind the scenes and he even loses), breaks a stick (Saruman's Staff) and tells the Witch King to 'go away'.

In Cook's Dread Empire series magic is almost over the top - a single mage destroying an entire city - but mostly the mages just fight other mages, a theme often repeated by Erickson.

So in the end, imo magic is indeed too powerful when comared to a sword.  But it does not mean in the grand context of things that it is too powerful when compared to everything else.

[rdanhenry]

Maybe I haven't played enough different settings or read enough of different books, but I cannot seem to remember a setting/book where the spell user was not the most powerful people/beings.

Skeeve comes to mind...

Skeeve is weak because he doesn't have very much magic. He's got more powerful magical types working for him, nevermind the powerful enemy wizards he faces. Not that there aren't some impressive warrior types as well, but even Skeeve's little bit of magic is shown to be quite powerful if applied properly.

Regarding powerful magic users merely threatening people, LotR Gandalf does about four things - summons an eagle, fights the Balrog (all behind the scenes and he even loses), breaks a stick (Saruman's Staff) and tells the Witch King to 'go away'.

He does *not* summon an eagle (they come on their own to Mordor and Radagast sends the one that rescues Gandalf from Orthanc) and he does not lose to the Balrog, he fights it to a draw (they both die). He fights off five ringwraiths on Weathertop and given what is seen from afar, he is opening his tin of elemental whupass at that point. He heals Theoden. He enchants fireworks and pipesmoke (not highly powerful, but still magical). He breaks a stone bridge. He creates fire and light (including a beam that drives away Nazgul). He kills the Great Goblin and he turns pinecones into incendiary grenades. He uses defensive magic that prevents even Aragorn's highly magical blade from being a threat to him when confronted in Fangorn and mistaken for Saruman. There's probably some more I'm forgetting. All in all, not bad for someone who is under some pretty strict rules limiting open displays of power.

For that matter, who is powerful other than Gandalf... Elrond, Galadriel, Sauron, Saruman... all magic users. The Balrog? Fire and shadow powers at the very least. Aragorn? Healing powers at a minimum. Good attunement skill, a magic sword, and some of his other abilities seem magical, although perhaps in some cases better represented in Rolemaster as Talents than as spell lists. Denethor? He's some sort of Mentalism user in Rolemaster terms. Dwarven kings? Maybe not magical... although the Dwarves are known for their mighty works, including magical items. I'd expect their kings have a *little* power in that regard, at least, and they don't appear to have great personal power. The Witch-King of Angmar? Enough said. Ents? Brewers of magical water and wakers of trees. Tom Bombadil? Bard with access to probably any spell list he wants. Oliphant? Okay, got me there.