Topic: Metric or Imperial System for RM Revised

[allenrmaher]

Grr ... I bet their movement rate is ridiculous.

Well at least they aren't short... short people... no reason .... hmmmmm.

British people never, ever look stupid relative to the lesser nations.  We often do things that are derisory by our own standards but not compared to the rest of the world.  Particularly since we stood back and said "pkay you can have it back ... see if you can do better without our governance."  Its starting to look like you should have left in charge, what?

I suspect not... the sins of the latter empire were numerous and grievous.  (Speaking as one from said former Empire)  It is easy to take swings at the Americans for thier current global Hegemony, but any student of history can see the parallels with the preceding British one.  And the dominions which have been independant of the Empire the longest seem to be doing the best... (US, Canada, Austrailia, NZ, SA, India... all are doing quite well without the Queen's good graces and guidance.)

The nations in the most dire straights are those that were the last vistages of empire (with the exception of Hong Kong... which was more of a place looking for a flag of convienience than anything else... (I was there before and after the hand over nothing changed but the flag.)

[gribble]

AlMr:

So you are against "Imperial" not just Imperial measures?

(If you bend down a bit, lofty, you might get a bit more oxygen to help your brain function in an unbiased way)

You have to admit (back on subject) that the metric system is boring...

[smug]

Boring like UK decimal coinage is boring. Nothing like 240 pence to the pound to keep things interesting.

[allenrmaher]

AlMr:

So you are against "Imperial" not just Imperial measures?

(If you bend down a bit, lofty, you might get a bit more oxygen to help your brain function in an unbiased way)

You have to admit (back on subject) that the metric system is boring...

Yes I oppose imperialism as a concept not just a measurement system.  Both are farsicly illogical, difficult to compute, and arbitrary in application. 

Metric boring?  Of course it is, that is what a system of measurement should be, sensible, consistent and predictable.   

Even within Imperial units there is disagreement.  I'd rather have the 20 oz UK pint than the US 16 oz.  The extra four oz I suspect are there because the beer in the commonwealth is much better so people want more of it, where as in the US the beer is something you would want less of.

[Sorloc]

I bet the ancestors of gribble and Ictus were railing against the newfangled Arabic numerals when there was nothing wrong with good old traditional Roman numerals

Except that they didn't have a zero (0)! 

Actually, the metric system is far from perfect; it would be much better if it were base-12 instead of base-10...

@ Akai:

That's just the metric system with different labels! 

1/10, 1, 10, 100, 1000 is a metric progression.
1/12, 1, 3, 1762 is a Imperial progression.
1/16, 1, 2000 is another Imperial progression, and
1/32, 1/4, 1, 4 is yet another

 - *note* American Fluid Ounces and British Fluid Ounces are NOT the same!  1 US fl.oz. = 1.04 UK fl.oz. 1 US gal = 0.8 UK gal

To be more like Imperial, there would have to be 15 booies to the drambooie and 7 drambooies to the flarg, and 1,286 flargs to the yuhep.

(note that the unit labels rarely have any relationship with each other, and to make it especially fun, have a unit of volume use the same unit label as a unit of weight, and have no units for measuring mass, just weight, so your system is only useful at a certain elevation on a certain planet)

[smug]

Base 12 would only be better if our entire numerical system was in base 12.

[Sorloc]

which it should be...

12 has more factorals than 10, so you would get repeating decimals far less often.
I can divide a circle into 12 equal parts fairly well freehand, but dividing a circle into 10 equal parts is hard even with a protractor.

I suspect that there was once a base-12 numbering system in some southern European culture, as several languages (Greek, English, French, Spanish) have different words for 11 and 12 (OK, so Spanish has different words for 13&14 also, and French for 15&16), and they are not referred to as tendyone or oneteen

[smug]

I know why 12 is preferred by some, but that's not about the metric system, it's about the base of our numerical system. If we counted in base 12, then the metric system would have been in base 12.

The factors business is certainly true for simplfying mental arithmatic. Wouldn't make much difference to scientists, though, because our important numbers are nearly always irrational (or, at least, we have no reason to assume that they are rational).

[koustaki]

I suspect that there was once a base-12 numbering system in some southern European culture, as several languages (Greek, English, French, Spanish) have different words for 11 and 12 (OK, so Spanish has different words for 13&14 also, and French for 15&16), and they are not referred to as tendyone or oneteen

Just for the record, Spanish has different words for 1-15, just before it turns to "10+n" (in terms of word construction).

As for the poll, just the name of the Imperial system makes it look suspect to me. Too much setting-specific, I bet.

Rb

[koustaki]

I forgot - rather than going for a 12-base system, why not use the good old binary system? Hexadecimal numbers anyone?

Defintely, this poll is incomplete and does lead us nowhere... I suggest it's replaced by something like:

"With whom would you prefer to be left alone in a desert island:
A. Gribble.
B. Smug.
C. A copy of RMC VII
D. Kate Beckinsale.
E. Other (please explain)"

Rb

[smug]

I'm voting for Kate Beckinsale.

[allenrmaher]

With whom would you prefer to be left alone in a desert island:
A. Gribble.
B. Smug.
C. A copy of RMC VII
D. Kate Beckinsale.
E. Other (please explain)"

Rb

A conditional A vote if the bannana's are too high up in the tree to reach and I need a short stool to reach them.  If the trees are too tall I vote D, and to hell with the Banannas.

[Cory Magel]

Actually, this poll probably leans heavily towards one direction due to the fairly multinational crowd we have here (which I like, btw). However, the poll would therefore only have so much relivance as the amount of product sold in nations using the metric sytem. If the majority of the ICE products are sold in the US, then it would silly to use Metric. However, if there's a large percentage of foreign (outside the US) sales then we should be nice and let them put metric... um... notes... in the very back of the books... in really small print. Ok, ok, seriously, if that were the case they should list both measurements.

[Akai]

I bet the ancestors of gribble and Ictus were railing against the newfangled Arabic numerals when there was nothing wrong with good old traditional Roman numerals

Except that they didn't have a zero (0)! 

Actually, the metric system is far from perfect; it would be much better if it were base-12 instead of base-10...

@ Akai:

That's just the metric system with different labels! 

I'm well aware of that.  The point is that some people don't like the metric system because it sounds too bland, too "scientific", so my suggested remedy to that particular objection is to give names to the units that have a bit more character to them.

[Gege]

Actually, this poll probably leans heavily towards one direction due to the fairly multinational crowd we have here (which I like, btw). However, the poll would therefore only have so much relivance as the amount of product sold in nations using the metric sytem. If the majority of the ICE products are sold in the US, then it would silly to use Metric. However, if there's a large percentage of foreign (outside the US) sales then we should be nice and let them put metric... um... notes... in the very back of the books... in really small print. Ok, ok, seriously, if that were the case they should list both measurements.

No no no. No double measurements. I prefer to learn imperial rather than to deal with the strange conversions I pointed out some pages ago in this thread.

[gribble]

I prefer to learn imperial rather than to deal with the strange conversions I pointed out some pages ago in this thread.

I thought that the other guys were just explaining that it is almost impossible to learn imperial.

[Gege]

I thought that the other guys were just explaining that it is almost impossible to learn imperial.

 

I guess it's better than dealing with 96cm3/lvl spells. Ideally, I would prefer Akai's solution but I understand that a product mostly sold in the US has to be adapted to the market. Are ICE's products mostly sold in the US by the way (counting PDFs)?

[smug]

In some sense, the UK and US cutomers are actually in a better situation with metric than the rest of the world are with Imperial, given that we learn both (as we have to, because the metric system is much more prevalent and is also key to any sort of career in science, etc) wheras people who grow up in countries where measurements are all in metric have no reason to learn an antiquated and dying measurement system like Imperial.

I think that measuring temperatures in Fahrenheit will be the last thing to go, in the US (although, strangely, it has already gone in the UK), unless concerns about road safety keep mph as the measurement of speed (rather than dual measurements in kmph and mph).

[Sorloc]

US auto manufacturers responded to the call for metric by producing speedometers with both mph and kph.  Strangely, this does not seem to have helped switch things over, it merely gives us a useless gague on our cars.  If, however, they had switched the SPEED LIMIT signs AND the speedometers, then you look at your gague, and if it's reading higher than the sign, keep an eye out for the mobile revenue generation officers (police).

How about look at it this way:   I have, say, 5 main cultures in my world (for example).  I want each one to have its unique system of measurement, just to hack off my players.  So, I have to make up the systems, and create conversion charts so that I at least know what I'm talking about.  I'd much rather use SI as the basis for those conversions than Imperial. 

I'm actually getting annoyed at hearing that Imperial units give a flavor to the system.  If this is so, then the flavor is pralines and lark's vomit.  The Imperial system is lame, and needs to go bye-bye, and is in the process of doing so.  If flavor is a desire, then Akai's system would work great for one of the cultures, but you know what?  Not all cultures across the world are going to use the same system!

The best website I've found for systems of measurement is University Exeter,
http://www.ex.ac.uk/cimt/dictunit/dictunit.htm


For some good flavor, try this site and use old foreign measurement systems:
http://www.convert-me.com/en/

Japanese: ri  / kairi / cho  / jyo  / ken  / shyaku / sun  / mon 
Chinese Imperial: li  / yin  / zhang   / bu  / chi  / cun  / fen  /  vli (small) / hao / si    / hu 
Old Russian  : mile / verst   / mezhevaya verst  / kosaya sazhen  / sazhen  / makhovaya  / azhen  / arshin  / ell * / foot  / line / inch  / vershok  / pyad 
Ancient Roman :  millarium / akt  / decimpeda  / pace / cubit  / ped (foot) legal  / ped ordinary  / ounce (inch) / digit 

Americans probably use a greater variety of units of measurement than anyone else in the world. Caught in a slow-moving transition from customary to metric units, we employ a fascinating and sometimes frustrating mixture of units in talking about the same things. We measure the length of a race in meters, but the length of the long jump event in feet and inches. We speak of an engine's power in horsepower and its displacement in liters. In the same dispatch, we describe a hurricane's wind speed in knots and its central pressure in millibars.

Furthermore, our English customary units do not form a consistent system. Reflecting their diverse roots in Celtic, Roman, Saxon, and Norse cultures, they are often confusing and contradictory. There are two systems for land measurement (one based on the yard and the other on the rod) and a third system for distances at sea. There are two systems (avoirdupois and troy) for small weights and two more (based on the long and short tons) for large weights. Americans use two systems for volumes (one for dry commodities and one for liquids) and the British use a third (British Imperial Measure).

Meanwhile, only a few Americans know that the legal definitions of the English customary units are actually based on metric units. The U. S. and British governments have agreed that a yard equals exactly 0.9144 meter and an avoirdupois pound equals exactly 0.453 592 37 kilograms. In this way, all the units of measurement Americans use every day are based on the standards of the metric system. Since 1875, in fact, the United States has subscribed to the International System of Weights and Measures, the official version of the metric system.

[Cormac Doyle]

Ireland just changed the way it did things  (last year) ... but up until then ... SPEED was measured in Miles per hour (speed limits/laws/etc all used mph) but DISTANCE was measured in Kilometers !!!

Last January, we officially switched to using km/h for speed ... and this was heralded by a huge publicity campaign. All the speed limits had to be adjusted ... 30 MPH easily switched to 50 km/h ... but some of the others were more problematic ...

Similarly, by law - volume must be measured in litres ... but people still measure fuel consumption in miles/gallon
Anything being sold in the shops must use Metric meaures (but may offer imperial measures on the same sign) - any shop only offering imperial measures will be brought to court. Since this is an EU-wide law ... the same laws apply in the UK. Doesn't stop carpets/tiles/other DIY stuff being sold "by the square yard" ... and having a figure like ?9.99 per square yard (and then some wierd-ass cost per square meter).

Of course, there's a classic quote in one of the evening papers from 1974 when Ireland dumped the old fashoned lsd and switched to the old (100 pennies to the pound) Irish decimal pounds.

"Why didn't they wait for all the old people to die before getting rid of the traditional money?"

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Cormac