Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Druss_the_Legend on October 04, 2022, 04:19:06 PM
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When characters tell a lie to someone who has lie detection do you just roll against their detection skill? do you apply any other modifiers for a convincing lie or clever half truth? Or the liars stat mod?
Example. PCs telling a lie to a guard who has lie perception. Make a skill check for the guard with modifier?
Does guard get a roll for each lie told? Or the whole story gets a single roll?
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I have them do RR either Acting (if it's a bold faced lie) or Diplomacy (if they are actually telling the truth but the baddie doesn't believe them). In the end, the the guards are dead set on arresting the party, they aren't going to be listening anyway. :)
If the lie is terrible or the circumstances are dire, I may look on the MM table to see if a modifier can be applied. I do like to give the PCs a 1-in-a-million-chance-but-it-just-might-work! chance too.
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I have them do RR either Acting (if it's a bold faced lie) or Diplomacy (if they are actually telling the truth but the baddie doesn't believe them). In the end, the the guards are dead set on arresting the party, they aren't going to be listening anyway. :)
If the lie is terrible or the circumstances are dire, I may look on the MM table to see if a modifier can be applied. I do like to give the PCs a 1-in-a-million-chance-but-it-just-might-work! chance too.
ah ok, so give them a chance to make a roll first using their acting/diplomacy skill. The success or failure of this skill check means they get a modifier to the lie detection check?
also guards might not be willing to listen regardless of their story (true or not) and just arrest them!
but they still get a hail mary chance to pull it off with a super good roll.
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I have them do RR either Acting (if it's a bold faced lie) or Diplomacy (if they are actually telling the truth but the baddie doesn't believe them). In the end, the the guards are dead set on arresting the party, they aren't going to be listening anyway. :)
If the lie is terrible or the circumstances are dire, I may look on the MM table to see if a modifier can be applied. I do like to give the PCs a 1-in-a-million-chance-but-it-just-might-work! chance too.
Absurd difficulty for the one and million chance?
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I have them do RR either Acting (if it's a bold faced lie) or Diplomacy (if they are actually telling the truth but the baddie doesn't believe them). In the end, the the guards are dead set on arresting the party, they aren't going to be listening anyway. :)
If the lie is terrible or the circumstances are dire, I may look on the MM table to see if a modifier can be applied. I do like to give the PCs a 1-in-a-million-chance-but-it-just-might-work! chance too.
Absurd difficulty for the one and million chance?
A million-to-one chance succeeds nine times out of ten.
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A million-to-one chance succeeds nine times out of ten.
..... but only when another player states loudly and clearly "... but it just might work!"
ah ok, so give them a chance to make a roll first using their acting/diplomacy skill. The success or failure of this skill check means they get a modifier to the lie detection check?
also guards might not be willing to listen regardless of their story (true or not) and just arrest them!
but they still get a hail mary chance to pull it off with a super good roll.
I'll give them either a flat RR vs. Lie Perception, or I'll have the player roll on the MM table to see what the modifier is because the MM table has Success results as well as absolute fail results. I'll use that for the One in a Million chance.
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I have them do RR either Acting (if it's a bold faced lie)…
Wouldn't Duping be a better skill in such a case?
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I have them do RR either Acting (if it's a bold faced lie)…
Wouldn't Duping be a better skill in such a case?
You maybe right. Duping and seduction might be better skills.
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I never liked Duping for lying. I always thought of it as a sleazy used car salesman leaning on a customer to say ‘yes’ to the lemon.
Not lying about anything, just waving their hands around and using big words and talking really fast to make a sale.
Acting was always the defacto Lying skill I went to since the late 80s(RM2).
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You maybe right. Duping and seduction might be better skills.
Duping is the act of speaking quickly and confusingly to get someone to do something they wouldn't normally do (per RMC-II). I liken that to getting a mark to pay you 50 gold for this 'priceless artifact', get the barkeep to give you a free pitcher of ale, or maybe get the prison guard to give you the key to the cell. I would agree, used car salesman or horse trader-esgue feel to it.
And seduction is, well.... seducing. Maybe not effective if all of the PCs and NPCs are all male and/or from different races.
Acting seems to feel more like acting convincingly, calmly, trying to pass off a lie rather than tricking someone into doing something you desire.
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Seduction isn't necessarily sexual. A drug dealer trying to get you to "try it" is practicing seduction, as is the demon offering you power in exchange for just a little bargain. Well, except for "seduction" as a criminal offense, which was (a) only sexual, but also (b) only defined as a crime against women, so a woman could not seduce a man in that sense. Still doesn't apply, here, though.
I'd allow either duping or acting to sell a simple lie. In any system with a lot of skills, you need to allow for some overlap.
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In any system with a lot of skills, you need to allow for some overlap.
Whilst Duping, Acting and Seduction may all be used to sell a lie, I don't think they overlap as much as they each match different ways to do so.
In the context of selling a lie to guards so that they let you go, using Duping is fast talking them, including with lies and half truths, so quickly and confusedly they don't have time to think about it, pretty much ending with a quick "...and so, I have to go, good bye" and leaving. It's the classical and comical situation where the hero quickly leaves, just to hear the guards call him, "Hey you!", and thinks, "Damn! They realised already!" Advantage: it doesn't take time so it's the best way if you're in a hurry. Drawback: as soon as the guards have time to think about it, they will realise you lied and duped them.
OTOH, Seduction would be to manipulate the feelings and emotions of the guards, gaining their sympathy, or pity, or anything of the like, so that they'd let you, including actually seducing them. It's the case where they'd tell you, "Okay, I let it pass this time." Advantage: if it works, the guards willingly let you get away, so there's no chance (save external circumstances, such as a higher officer passing by and wondering) they'd go after you. Drawback: most of the time, the guards realise you're lying to them whilst trying to gain their pity / sympathy / affection / whatever so it all eventually depends on their will to let you go, which is less likely to happen the bigger the lie is.
At last, Acting would be indeed acting as if you were honestly believing your own words. Advantage: even if you fail, you may still act as the victim who was fed the lie, thus lower your sentence. Drawback: of the three, it's probably the one that takes the most time, as you have to, calmly and politely, discuss with the guards, and they usually have time to think about it and realise it's a lie.
In other words, in my opinion, someone skilled in the three skills should:
* If it's a small lie, try Seduction, because even if the guards realise he's lying, they'd let him go because he's cute / pitiable / likeable / whatever compared to how minor the lie is,
* If it's a big lie and he thinks he's able to outrun the guards, try Duping,
* If it's a big lie and he doesn't think he's able to outrun the guards, try Acting so that, if the guards don't know or don't realise what he says is wrong / absurd / whatever, he's able to leave but if they do, he'd get a lower sentence because, honest! He didn't know! It's what he was told!
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Because the game has what 9000 minute skills we tend toward simplifying things. If a character has any skill that could apply to a situation we allow it to be used unless the specific task actually requires a specific skill. If a player wants to lie to a guard (the OPs example I believe) we’d allow any of the lying skills to be used. It’s impractical and nonsensical to drill down into the way the lie is told. Essentially we take the position that PC1 with seduction is good at convincing people just as PC2 with Duping is good at convincing people. When it comes to a simple situation we don’t get too bothered by cross use of skills.
When it comes to actually seducing someone, duping might not be applicable just as trying to fast talk someone in a con wouldn’t be seduction and it wouldn’t be applicable.
Because this game took the unfortunate approach of getting stuck in minutia (which is core to its DNA and design principle) GMs and players in order to accomplish pretty mundane goals have to be allowed to use a plethora of skills in order to accomplish tasks.
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Because the game has what 9000 minute skills we tend toward simplifying things. If a character has any skill that could apply to a situation we allow it to be used unless the specific task actually requires a specific skill.
Excellent point. When a Player wants to roll a Skill check to accomplish something the easy cases are responded to by either "Yes, roll it " OR "No."
There is a huge expanse of grey area between those two responses. When I am Gamemastering and a player tries to use a skill or check that doesn't instantly fall in Yes or No, I discuss with the party (not just that specific player) what they are trying to accomplish and if another Skill or plan might work better for the outcome they want.
Going back to the original post Lie Perception is a pretty specific skill. Characters lying to an NPC with that Skill I would probably just have the NPC make one check for the Encounter. Definately apply modifiers based on what the lie is and if the NPC would be knowedgeble.
Example characters try to pass fake gold coins off to a merchant and get discovered. Characters could lie, pleading ignorance the coins were fake, but the metchant woud probably still file a report with the guards even if the merchant believes the lie.
A sucessful Duping or Seduction roll might be necessary to convince the merchant not to file a report even if they believe the player's lie about the fake coins. Whether the angle is "no need hassle yourself to bring these fake coins to the guards, we'll do it for you" OR "you seem like a good guy and we really can't stay around all day with guards asking questions, could you not report this friend?"
Sometimes what matters is the Skill check not the player dialogue...afterall, a player may say the wrong thing at the wrong time and insist it is "in-character" but if their Character has skills of an elite con-artist/seducer/diplomat sometimes it is easier just to have the roll the dice and ignore poor wording.
Looking at other skills, if a Character uses the Shipbuilding skill you wouldn't dump a pile of balsa wood and ask the Player to build a scale model in addition to his character's Skill check roll, right?
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Since I see Lie Perception as more like a lie detector test rather than if the character believes the lie itself, I only use acting for the lying character with the level of success determining how much I adjust the difficulty up for the lie detection SM.