Author Topic: Revised Profession: Summoner  (Read 1856 times)

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Offline Eladan

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Revised Profession: Summoner
« on: February 02, 2022, 12:18:08 PM »
After putting aside the Summoner/Caller section of my RM2 conversion project for over a year+, I figured it was time to revisit it. Admittedly, I'm bouncing around between professions a bit (my most recent foray into the Healer/Lay Healer merge only combined the 6 healing lists into 3), but I've found that walking away and coming back later allows me look at lists and other concepts with a fresh perspective. So let's get into it!

Many of the concepts of the Summoner stem from the conversation here:
https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?topic=20200.0
Based on these discussions, and some great mechanics brainstorming by BHanson and others, I've decided to run with the notion that the Summoner effectively "gates" creatures from another location through his summoning spells. For all intents and purposes, these are random creatures from the wild, but I actually like the implication: the Summoner can build relationships (or enmity) with his summoned creatures. Summoning a wolf has little impact on a global scale, but summoning a dragon or major demon can have lasting effects: Do these intelligent creatures resent being summoned? Do they feel like they are being abused? Will they seek revenge for this offense by some puny human?

As a result, I've settled on the notion that two lists in the Summoner's initial Base lists will be dedicated to summoning exclusively. Other lists will either augment that skill, address some other implications of summoning (such as "gating"), or perhaps be tied to the concept of a Summoner who has a connection to or understanding of beasts and other entities, albeit not in a natural way, such as the Druid/Animist concept.

Here's a summary of the basic list concepts for the starting 6 Base lists:
  • Natural Summons - Allows summoning of animals and more fantastical beasts
  • Planar Summons - Allows summoning of divine/infernal creatures, elementals, etc
  • Circles of Summoning - Allows the creation of circles that can strengthen summons spells at the cost of time-consuming static magic circles / Also has some warding circles in there
  • Circles of Travel - Allows the creation of static gates between locations, for humanoids and entities alike
  • Empowerment - Sets of spells meant to augment creatures and their skills once summoned

This leaves me with at least one list to fill, and question as to what other concepts fit this brand of Summoner.
  • Communing - Spell for communication with creatures, summoned of otherwise (think extracting info from demons, appealing to angelic entities, etc). This is the one I'm leaning toward.
  • Research - Lore-based spells centered on understanding and/or altering creatures... not sure about this one.
  • And other suggestions?

As of now, I only have Natural Summons and Circles of Summoning complete (link here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hsRXkw_7U75NKA1TFvBrLJYAyKQWBtXM/view?usp=sharing). Planar Summons is almost done since it essentially uses the same mechanics as Natural Summons. For the Empowerment list, I've been mixing/matching some of the concepts from the Summoning Bond list in Channeling Companion, but still have lots of gaps. I'm open to thoughts form the brain trust on both the completed lists, as well as any direction you think would be logical in terms of where this profession should go.


———————————————
Note: Status of professions in my Conversion to RMU Project:
  • Healer: Under development (3 main healing Base lists compressed)
  • Astrologer: Complete / under revision
  • Mystic: Complete / under revision
  • Shaman: Complete / under revision
  • Shapechanger (Arms version): Complete / under revision
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Offline jdale

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2022, 01:00:03 PM »
I think the lore aspect can mostly be handled through skills and professional bonuses. You could also fit a few lore-boosting spells on a Communing list, especially at lower levels. An entire list for summoning-related lore is probably too much, whereas communing has a lot of potential.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2022, 01:47:49 PM »
You could also have a list to deal with the issues of summoning creatures for your purposes, which are not theirs. Things like healing that only works on creatures you summoned. Magical feeding of summoned creatures. Other goodies that would appeal to various summoning types. Cleansing for spirits or elementals that might feel "contaminated" by our world. Of course, the more you get into the supernatural creatures, the more it gets into world-specific stuff.

You can also have a summons-modification spell to summon a particular individual, so you could make deals with the more intelligent entities and pay for "services to be rendered".

Finally, you might include some banishing, to send creatures that have been summoned or which are not native to this plane, back whence they came. He who can summon can usually also banish.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2022, 01:55:18 PM »
I also think Communing is the way to go. It also has applications beyond summoned creatures, so could be quite a good utility list even when you don't have a creature out.

I agree with Rdan though: there should be some Banishing spells on some of those lists, for when things go wrong (and they too also have application beyond your own summons, so maybe the Banishing spells might give caster a bonus to Banishing creatures he himself has summoned).

Healing/feeding summons is a good idea too, and would I think actually fit under the wider umbrella of 'communing'.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2022, 04:04:40 PM »
>You can also have a summons-modification spell to summon a particular individual, so you could make deals with the more intelligent entities and pay for "services to be rendered".

On that note, it might make sense to have a spell to memorize a signature/identity for specific known entities you want to be able to recall, with the maximum number of memorized entities equal to your level. That follows a common structure and provides a place for growth. And if one of those entities is truly destroyed, it cost you something too.
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Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2022, 05:46:11 PM »
All fantastic ideas. So overall:
  • 6th list - I agree that Communing seems to be the most likely candidate to fill the 6th spell list slot. One of the principles of RM2, especially with demonic summoning, was that while the summoned entity could understand you, communication and gaining information required another spell. I like this mechanic.
  • 7th list - I think a healing/feeding list that's limited to the summoned creatures would be good as well. A list themed as "Summoning Boon" could establish that notion of give and take between the entities. I'm working on making some sort of defined system for the notion of taint and corruption for use with my Shaman class and the spirits they summon, so this could could connect to that.
Could the summoning spells as they are currently written simply include banishing as part of the spell? Is there a need for a whole separate list or spell set for that? I see two possible mechanics:
  • Add the language for banishing to the existing summoning spells. This is actually already in the language for Demonic Summons spells in RMU Beta.
  • Allow casters to perform Spell Mastery rolls to use summoning spells to banish. Might be an easier, simpler mechanic.
Hoping to have the Planar Summons list up in the next day or so. Very curious for feedback on that front.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2022, 06:59:15 PM »
If the spell is holding the entity present and it will disappear back to its origin at the conclusion of the spell, it stands to reason that you ought to be able to conclude the spell early. And also that it is an "active spell" and therefore can be dispelled. This interpretation makes more sense than imagining the spell summons the creature initially and then banishes it at the end, in which case dispelling it midway would trap the creature here permanently (unless it found its way home). Dispel definitely shouldn't let you change a temporary spell into a permanent one. (You could decide summonings are harder to banish, but I don't think it's necessary.)

In RMU, in order to cancel your own spell, you must still be within the original casting range of the spell, and you must concentrate for one round on canceling the spell. It's not a free action.

Banishing a creature that someone else summoned is another matter entirely.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2022, 10:25:58 PM »
Yes, and generally speaking, the Banish spells are needed. They tend to be separate spells from the summoning; and the Banish spells tend to come just before the equivalent summoning spell on the lists (you don't want to summon anything you can't banish!). See for example the Evil Channeling, Demonic Summons list.

Having separate banishing and summoning spells will take up many of the slots on the list. Since there are 6 types of demons (I-VI), as well as possibly summoning a demon beyond the pale at level 50, that means these spells would take up about half the list (12 or 13 out of 25 spells). Is that too much?

Note too it would be relatively easy to offer extra or alternative summoning lists too. I wouldn't feel especially bound by the 6-list collection for each class. Having 7 or 8 is not too bad, since it gives the player more choice (he or she would just have to select which 6 are his/her base out of the 7 or 8 ).
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Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2022, 09:54:26 AM »
Quote
I wouldn't feel especially bound by the 6-list collection for each class. Having 7 or 8 is not too bad, since it gives the player more choice (he or she would just have to select which 6 are his/her base out of the 7 or 8 )
I agree with you completely on that concept; most of the professions I'm revamping I'm trying to give between 7-9 lists so there's diversity. Long term, there I'll be making alternative lists for the core classes.

Quote
Having separate banishing and summoning spells will take up many of the slots on the list... Is that too much?
I personally think it is too much. I've tried to address this by making the summoning spelling on my lists active spells, meaning that the magic summoning them is an active link that, in theory, could be dispelled by other means. Under my current mechanics, and as Jdale explained in the RMU framework, in order to "banish" a creature the caster has summoned, he simply has to spend a round canceling the spell. The question then becomes what is required to banish someone else's summons...

Part of my concept in combining the main summoning spells into two lists was to give some more flexibility to the class. There have been several comments that having 3-4 summoning lists don't add a great deal of firepower to the profession, and I don't disagree. However, that means that my Natural Summons and Planar Summons lists are pretty packed and don't have, in my opinion, a lot of fat able to be cut.

Would the solution then be to create a list dedicated to Banishment/Containment? I could possibly move the Circle of Warding spells over to it from the Planar Summons list, which would free up some space on that list as well for some other concepts related to extraplanar creatures. As I'm typing this, I think that might be the way to go.

Here are first 3 updated lists, which now includes Planar Summons. Again, maybe the solution is another list that the Summoner can choose to invest in but isn't required for the class.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hsRXkw_7U75NKA1TFvBrLJYAyKQWBtXM/view?usp=sharing
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Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2022, 10:00:40 AM »
One more comment on the concept of build/list diversity: it is particularly important with a profession like the Summoner. A big influence for me is the Summoner/Caller from the Final Fantasy series. In that series, the profession had a lot of diversity and utility. Through their summons, they were big damage dealers, had some healing and defensive capabilities, and some out of combat utility, but all this came at the cost of spells that were costly in terms of time and power points (MP). I think the Summoner is moving in that direction but obviously needs tweaking, and build diversity ensures that this versatility comes at the price of investment.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2022, 11:27:05 AM »
Personally, I would say it is ok to divide up the summons list and add in banishing spells on them, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the existing lists do mix together rather diffierent creatures. Your extraplanar list for example could be used to summon Elementals, Demons, and Angels. Realistically, most summoners are going to choose one or the other: someone who worships a good god is probably not going to be summoning demons into their world. And remember, if you offer 8 or 9 lists, then a Summoner is probably only going to need one or the other (Demons or Angels), rather than both.

So I wouldn't even be opposed to having four or five summoning lists, to conform more closely to Creature Law's creature categories: Animals; Monsters; Elementals; Extraplanar (with a note that summoners of good gods tend not to want to summon demons, and summoners of Evil gods tend not to invoke Champions).

I always thought that cancelling a summoning spell would cancel a summons spell already in progress, but not banish a summoned creature already present, since it is a real entity in the physical world. Can you simply cancel it? That seems a little weird to me. That does seem to be the way it works in RMU though, as per JDale's explanation.

One possibility, if you did want to keep just a few summons lists with lots of different creatures on it, would be to add language into the summoning spells that specifies that the creature can be banished by casting the spell again and then making a Spell Mastery roll to reverse it. This would be in line with RMU's core rules about Spell Mastery and reversing spells, and also solves the problem of how you can banish someone else's summons.

 
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Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2022, 12:57:21 PM »
Quote
So I wouldn't even be opposed to having four or five summoning lists, to conform more closely to Creature Law's creature categories: Animals; Monsters; Elementals; Extraplanar...
That was my original intent. After some discussion in previous posts, I started to lean toward the idea that having that many might pigeon-hole the profession. However, if I was to expand it to say 3-4 summoning lists, then each Summoner would have to make a choice as to which lists in which he wants to invest. A Summoner then who wants to be able to summon every category of creature would do so at the cost of the extra lists which provide versatility. Not a bad idea, just a direction I wasn't necessarily going in anymore based on the other discussions. Certainly worth considering though from a balance perspective. That being said, I see the Summoner as more of a secular profession, using raw magical force to draw the creatures through, rather than affiliated with a  particular god, but that can be very setting specific.

Another option would be to add language to the Planar Summons list that limits summoning types based on alignment. Easy enough mechanic to add and avoids complications like a lawful good Summoner enlisting the service of demons.

Quote
That does seem to be the way it works in RMU though, as per JDale's explanation.
Right... summons in RMU seem to be active effects, essentially creating a sort of magical tether between the caster and the creature for the duration of the summons. My Circle spells and my Component spells are built on that interpretation in that they enhance the tether, giving more options in the summoning.

Something to consider is if banishment spells are necessary under the RMU rules. Wouldn't a Cancel Essence spell essentially have the same effect? As you note, Hurin, couldn't Spell Mastery achieve the same effect? Not that banishment wouldn't be something a Summoner shouldn't or couldn't have in another spell list, but I'm not entirely convinced it's needed under the RMU rules.

Unless of course Banishment has some sort of special advantage over Cancel magics: Perhaps it is instantaneous or has mass effects? Again, throwing stuff at the wall here...
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Offline jdale

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2022, 01:27:00 PM »
Presumably it's possible to open some kind of gate which permits extraplanar entities to remain in the world indefinitely rather than only briefly under the effects of a summoning spell. Banishment would still work in that case. If you wander into a dungeon and encounter a demon or elemental there, it's probably that sort of thing rather than a creature that was summoned only for a few minutes.

That kind of opening portals for normal interplanar travel might normally be the work of rituals rather than spells (although the 50th level spell on Summons does it too, since that spell has no duration).
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2022, 01:45:22 PM »
One more comment on the concept of build/list diversity: it is particularly important with a profession like the Summoner. A big influence for me is the Summoner/Caller from the Final Fantasy series. In that series, the profession had a lot of diversity and utility. Through their summons, they were big damage dealers, had some healing and defensive capabilities, and some out of combat utility, but all this came at the cost of spells that were costly in terms of time and power points (MP). I think the Summoner is moving in that direction but obviously needs tweaking, and build diversity ensures that this versatility comes at the price of investment.
  One of the popular sub-genres of Anime is Isekai (another world), where beings or just plain people are summoned into other realms for one reason or another. One such series is about a Japanese college student who was magically summoned to a fantasy kingdom as they needed a great hero to save the kingdom from disaster. The kingdom was poorly managed and the disaster was both economic and an impending famine. The Japanese student was exactly the kind of hero the kingdom needed -He applied free market principles to repair the economy, eliminated the wasteful bureaucracy in government, removed corrupt nobles and opened trade with neighboring nations. 
  Everybody assumed that a summoned hero would be a mighty warrior but a warrior would not have saved the kingdom, they needed a good leader who could think outside the box.

  Many of the Isekai genre are based off of MMORPGs and use online gaming standards as a measure of skills and rank. Examples would be Overlord and Demon Lord, Retry!, which is more a parody. Demon Lord, Retry! has a main character summoned to a fantasy world in the form of his super-high level MMO persona. The main character has no idea why he was summoned but sets out to fix the many problems he sees in the kingdom, which he looks upon as incompetent and corrupt, its church included.

  In context to summoning, I'd like to see a criteria-based form of summoning so that instead of summoning a mighty warrior or powerful being they get the person they actually need to solve their problems, such as Chinese Taoist mystic, Zhuge Liang, who was also a brilliant military tactician.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2022, 02:02:36 PM »
I just noticed this text at the end of the spell Elemental Control I on Closed Essence: Gate Mastery:

A controlled elemental may be commanded to return to its origin; this will take the elemental two rounds. Thus, this spell doubles as a means of banishing elementals.

If you go that route with the other types of control spells, you don't need specific Banishing spells anymore.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2022, 02:06:04 PM »
That presumes the target is capable of returning to their origin. It's reasonable to expect that for a demon, but for example in Vladimir's examples of summoning people from other worlds, they wouldn't necessarily have that ability.
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2022, 02:52:08 PM »
That presumes the target is capable of returning to their origin. It's reasonable to expect that for a demon, but for example in Vladimir's examples of summoning people from other worlds, they wouldn't necessarily have that ability.

  In the Isekai genre, a major part of the plot is the main characters finding a way to get home. In one of my favorite series, The Dungeon of Black Company the story parodies MMOs as well as Japanese corporate society by having the hero transported into the bottom level of a corporation that clears dungeons, where the workers slave away mining in the depths and supervisors berate them for failing to meet weekly goals. Workers are bullied through peer pressure to sacrifice their personal lives for the good of their employers and the hero bends a lot of rules and shamelessly exploits his fellow employees to get home, where he lived easy life due to brilliant investments. He's been summoned for a purpose but doesn't care -None of the people in the fantasy world deserve to be saved, they are all conniving jerks in the end and they know it.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2022, 02:55:21 PM »
That presumes the target is capable of returning to their origin. It's reasonable to expect that for a demon, but for example in Vladimir's examples of summoning people from other worlds, they wouldn't necessarily have that ability.

Do elementals have this ability in RMU?
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Offline jdale

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2022, 04:12:28 PM »
It's implied but not stated. But for that matter, it doesn't say that demons have the ability to go home either (or that they don't). Outside of summoning spells, it's really more a matter for narrative and worldbuilding.
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2022, 04:51:20 PM »
  There are many schools of thought concerning summoning:
1) The caster merely opens a door to let the summoned through.
This would be a persistent effect, where the summoning is permanent until another door is opened for the summoned to leave or be banished.

2) The caster allows the summoned through the door upon certain conditions, such as concentration or volition.
In this example, the summoned might be automatically sent back to its original plane due to the caster being incapacitated or killed  or the caster simply dismissing them.

3) The caster expends power to open the door and has to continue expending power to keep the summoned from returning to its original plane.
This would be a more involved version than example 2. The summoned is simply sent back to their plane of origin due to the power maintaining their presence being cut off.
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
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