Author Topic: Revised Profession: Healer(s)  (Read 4699 times)

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Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2022, 09:27:40 AM »
I think most of us agree that list consolidation is a good thing, and the real question then becomes how to do it. I've been tinkering with the scaling mechanic with some other healing spells as well (the Bone/Cartilage example above as a rudimentary example) and I think there's some potential there. I'm not as familiar with HARP but I've been told this has echoes of that system in it. This is my current big item in my resurgent "Revised Professions" project.

Jumping off of this, I think we all agree that healers having other functionality is important too. I think that the Healer and Lay Healer can combined using the above mechanics, which in turn gives them options to diversify. I'm curious what other GM's thoughts are in terms of what those functions could be. List ideas? Concepts? Perhaps scouring through the Channeling/Mentalism companions might yield some ideas rather than reinventing the wheel.

I'm honestly not sure where I fall on the non-instant and ranged effects to healing magics. RM strikes me as a game where healing is quite restrictive... how many other games, from TTRPGs to MMOs, are there healing options that are instantaneous, ranged, and can affect multiple targets? A decent amount I'd say. I personally wouldn't have an issue seeing some of those mechanics become more standardized... it might raise the appeal of the profession a bit more.
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2022, 09:46:14 AM »
Interesting ideas, Eladan. Some comments from my side:
-Regarding the Healer's problem that he can't act after taking wounds from other PCs: I fully agree and it's really a downside of this profession that - unless the Healer is able to instantly heal the damage - he can't act until recovered from the wounds, while the healed PC is instantly healed and can continue with the adventure. The good news is that normally a party would wait until everyone is recovered. So it's not that big an issue. One other approach I have tried with one of my last characters is to play a Wolverine-like Healer i.e. a Healer that is also good with a melee weapon and can battle in the front line. And when he gets wounded he can quickly recover using his healing spells. Of course he would also heal his comrades, just as a normal healer. That was fun. It's perhaps an idea for a new Healer variant.

-Regarding the spell scaling options: In 2011 an article of mine about using HARP's scalable spells for Rolemaster was published on The Guild Companion. You can still access the article here. The approach here was to use scalable spells in general for every spell list and not only for healing lists. I suggested such an approach to also get used for RMU, but the preferred approach for RMU was using the old spell list system and fill the empty slots in the lists.

Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2022, 10:05:05 AM »
@Ecthelion - Ha! I used a "multi-classed" Fighter-Healer one time as an antagonist and he made the party's life a living hell in combat... they would deliver crushing blows only for him to be up and swinging the next round. So that is certainly an archetype worth exploring. I will certainly check out the article... it seems like there are tons of solutions to some of these problems along this line of thinking.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2022, 10:11:50 AM »
There are some useful and important instant healing effects: stun relief, cut relief, fatigue relief, and hit restoration. These can all make a big difference during a combat. Those handle at least half of the activity penalties that combatants incur. A spell like Living Splint (halves an injury penalty temporarily) can also help. You could also have a buff spell to boost Fortitude as a way of mitigating penalties.

I feel like the Lay Healer and Healer are very different concepts. Lay Healer basically has 5 healing lists, prosthetics is extremely niche, especially considering that Joining is only 9th level. If you focus the profession in the mentalism realm, it would not be a big jump to add spells for mental healing, communication, calming, sleep, etc -- that's still thematic but has some combat utility.

For Healer, you could build on the empathic side. For example, you could have a spell permitting a Healer to share an experience -- you gave me this injury, and now I want you to understand how it feels (and suffer the injury penalty along with me). You could have your protective/shielding spells in here, invoking divine protection since this profession has a channeling side. You could have summoning, maybe having a protective spirit to control would allow the Healer to take a more active role while they themself are healing.

For the fighting empathic healer type archetype, I suppose you could explore an empathic healing base list for a semi like a paladin. Have to balance that one carefully.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2022, 01:06:59 PM »
In RMU, it isn't hard to have Open lists in addition to your Base lists from the very start. There are a lot of defensive and battlefield control lists available to the Healer. Seemings and one of the light-based lists will give some more offensive things to do. Double-developing Base lists is 18 out of 60 DP. Add six Open lists (or 4 Open, 1 Closed) at one rank/level and that's 24 for spells. You'll want PP, so 3 DP there. You still have over 30 DP left. Double-developing your primary weapon is doable, but probably not worth the expense unless your game is very combat-centric. Single development each level is definitely doable. The Healer class racks up Body Development rapidly, too. He may be mediocre on offense, but his other abilities mean he doesn't need to hold anything back. The Healer isn't in the top-tier of combat characters, but it isn't useless by any means. And with the ability to make significant coin legitimately, probably gets a bonus weapon faster than most.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2022, 01:49:43 PM »
There are some useful and important instant healing effects: stun relief, cut relief, fatigue relief, and hit restoration. These can all make a big difference during a combat. Those handle at least half of the activity penalties that combatants incur.

Yes, I should have been more precise: the Healing spells tend to take too long to have an effect in combat, but those ones above are useful.

One point I did want to make though is that making more healing spells instant will only help certain builds of healers -- namely, the ones that can engage in mundane combat. It won't help the spell-oriented pure casters because you can only cast one spell per round, and mundane combat skills are quite expensive for pure casters. So if all you can really do effectively is cast a spell, casting it as an instant is of less value.

A semi like a Paladin or Ranger who can fight as well as cast would get far more value out of that.

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You could also have a buff spell to boost Fortitude as a way of mitigating penalties.

Already on that train for my RMU Warlord (when I finally get around to making that class).


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For Healer, you could build on the empathic side... You could have summoning, maybe having a protective spirit to control would allow the Healer to take a more active role while they themself are healing.

Or a therapy dog that could also mix it up in combat. I think of a Druid with a St. Bernard!
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Online B Hanson

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2022, 07:25:11 PM »
I'm following along here, but just to clarify the issue for myself:

1. There are too many healing lists?
2. Casting should be quicker/instantaneous/ranged?
3. Effects should be immediate/instantaneous?
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Offline jdale

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2022, 10:05:40 PM »
Regarding #1, I would say the concern is not exactly "too many healing lists available" but "filling the role of a healer requires too much of a character's development focus, limiting their ability to participate in other parts of the game." Or in simpler terms, the complaint is "healers aren't fun." Reducing the number of lists is one option to address that concern.
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Offline EltonJ

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2022, 06:07:42 PM »
Regarding #1, I would say the concern is not exactly "too many healing lists available" but "filling the role of a healer requires too much of a character's development focus, limiting their ability to participate in other parts of the game." Or in simpler terms, the complaint is "healers aren't fun." Reducing the number of lists is one option to address that concern.

Well, I always thought that the Healer is an NPC profession instead of a PC one.

Offline jdale

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2022, 06:21:56 PM »
Every profession is a PC profession. I had a PC playing a scholar for while in my game. We had a Healer in our RMSS game for a while, and presently we have a channeling type healing character in each of the campaigns I am currently running.

Personally, I don't like having NPCs in the party, so if the thought is that the GM should provide an NPC healer to tag along, I don't find that a very good solution. If I wanted to do that, I would just give them a magic item with the spells and PP.
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2022, 06:36:24 PM »
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Well, I always thought that the Healer is an NPC profession instead of a PC one.
  True. At that point a PC is just another servant or faceless hireling whose purpose is only activated under specific conditions. They may as well be a cook, which is why after playing a number of classless RPGs, I find the artificial class/profession restrictions rather superfluous. You either accept the system as a conventional mechanic or you find another game. 
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Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2022, 10:31:19 PM »
@BriH - Those are fairly succinct summary points of my perceived issues with Healers. To answer them:
  • Jdale summed it up nicely. Compressing the lists is my main goal to that end.
  • Those are a few of the issues that come up with why healing classes tend to have less appeal to some (not all). The question of whether healing classes should have options to do those things can be addressed through the scaling mechanic, but I know that doesn't fit in everyone's game concept.

I'll try to finish and submit a draft of a revised list by the end of the weekend with my new scaling mechanics.

@Hurin - Interestingly, it might be able to bypass the one-spell-per-round mechanic with another list that not every healer would take... some sort of spell augmenting list specific to healing spells perhaps? Cast a spell from this list and the next round you can cast two healing spells up to a certain level? Increases the total spell output by 50%. I know our devs might say that creates some imbalance, but it certainly could add effectiveness to the class at the cost of development points and power points. This could be a whole other discussion though... I digress...

I agree with Jdale that all professions should have some measure of appeal to be played as a PC. Admittedly the simplest solution is to take some Open lists to provide more versatility, but I like the notion of healer-specific lists that provide more flavor within the class itself.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2022, 12:11:48 AM »

@Hurin - Interestingly, it might be able to bypass the one-spell-per-round mechanic with another list that not every healer would take... some sort of spell augmenting list specific to healing spells perhaps? Cast a spell from this list and the next round you can cast two healing spells up to a certain level? Increases the total spell output by 50%.

Sorry, I should have specified: this is a rule in RMU, and that's the system I tend to think in now. There is an option to allow players to cast more than one spell per round in RMU, but the system advises caution when considering that option and I do too, given how much stronger casters are in RMU (many more powerpoints, many more spells, less spell prep, etc.). So I don't really see the solution as being allowing more spells, since I like the 1 spell/round hard limit; and if you allow healers to cast more than 1/round, the Sorcerers and Magicians are going to want to as well.

So I personally prefer the current system, in which healers are probably going to be casting attack spells or doing other fun things during most combat rounds rather than casting Medium Cartilage Damage Relief, seeing as the latter is going to take a while to have an effect and can easily just be cast after combat.

Some fun ideas might be spells that reduce criticals by x severity by imbuing a target with supernatural robustness/healing abilities; casting a buff that turns a target into a kind of Wolverine who can regenerate hit points; and the aforementioned Warlord kind of spell that buffs the Fortitude skill.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2022, 01:16:40 AM »
Ongoing regeneration helps provide more activity, since the benefit is accruing even while you are doing other things. You could have other things like that, e.g. the target's stun is removed plus the next time they are stunned during the same combat it is reduced by 1 round. Doesn't break the rule but achieves the same benefit. Contingent spells could do that too; you put a spell on the target now and when they suffer X type of wound it is mitigated.
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2022, 02:20:37 AM »
  What I see is a need to either revise the Healer or invent another class with the following:
1) Simplified comprehensive healing, with consolidated spell lists.
2) The ability to cast regenerative spells to counter specific critical effects from bleed to organ damage.
3) In addition, have DP left over for a more rounded character, either as a spell caster with magical attack and defense capabilities or as a hybrid capable of effective combat.
4) Off the top of my head I'd call the new class/profession: a) Battle Healer or b) Combat Medic... 
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Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2022, 08:44:05 AM »
Agreed Hurin, I’m thinking of all of this in a RMU mindset. I see your point on the spell cap limit… modifying that is a dangerous path to go down.

The notion of buff lists is exactly what I’m thinking of for Healers. While Clerics, Druids, etc all get access to the “normal” healing lists, a Healer’s list should be be more powerful (and currently are, just need compression) and should have acces to some other fun items. Regeneration, damage resistance, wound mitigation… these are all good ideas. Time to hit the drawing board!
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2022, 11:22:52 AM »
I'm not bothered with the 1 spell/round limit (or whatever limit RMU states): the idea of healing spells in RM is that you cast them after the action is over unless there is a real emergency (because recovery takes more time than you have). Which means that, if the healer is casting healing spells every round, the situation is FUBAR anyway and the group has more pressing problems.

Lack of impact is more of an issue - and it is even more pronounced for the Healer profession because it is a hybrid profession and, as such, does not get the benefit of extra base spell lists as opposed to pure spellcasters. Since the healing spell lists are very focused on a single activity (healing, obviously), they are not versatile. Furthermore, since healing is required only after a combat that did not go that well, the activity itself is fairly niche as well - I'm not questioning its *usefulness*, I'm questioning its pro-activeness and applicability to a variety of situations.

And that's what I would expect from a revision of the base healing lists for the Lay Healer and Healer professions - more pro-active spells and more spells that do not require a specific situation (someone being injured). I would even say that I would expect at least part of that effort to go to spells that are useful in non-combat (or non-combat recovery) situations, but are useful for other activities (travel, social interactions, subterfuge, whatever).

Having healer-oriented spells that help travel is fairly easy to think of - spells that boost stamina or stride, spells that increase recovery, spells that provide increased tolerance to adverse conditions (extremes of temperature, dehydration, reduced oxygen availability because of altitude...), just off the top of my head.
Similarly, having healer-oriented spells that help social interactions should be a shoe-in, if only because social interactions are partially dependent on appearance (healthy, well-fed, well-groomed, fresh breath, no particular body odor...) and mental state (clear minded, attentive). Sure, it's not *healing* proper, but it could be within a healer's abilities.
Add to that pro-active spells that have combat usefulness such as enhanced regeneration, nerve rewiring for increased shock resistance capability, enhanced oxygen delivery for increased muscle efficiency (once again, just off the top of my head) and you have a healer that does not have to *wait* for someone to be wounded to feel that their core lists are useful.

Aggregating the existing lists to make room for new ones is an option. Another could be to make the existing lists more compact by removing partial redundancies (for instance, do we really need a flow stop *and* a clotting spell ?) and reducing the usual RM power increase scheme (XXX spell I, XXX spell II, XXX spell III and so on ad nauseam), so that the new spells can be inserted in the slots that are freed in a thematic way.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2022, 11:26:55 AM »
A completely different option, that goes well with elemental magic, is to have healing spells associated with elements. In that case, purely healing profession disappear, and healing spells become part of the lists available to elementalists because of elemental affinity with heaing activity (typically water, but other elements could have their own healing affinity).

Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2022, 12:00:24 PM »
Those buffs with medical rationales are a cool idea, and certainly can fit within the healer concept that I see I’m my gaming world.

With realigning magical realms in my game into Spheres, where realms are really just the mechanics by which magic operates, the Healer can fit nicely into Mentalism and really is redundant with the Lay Healer. I see them merged, with Prosthetics as one of the optional Base lists if necessary. Obviously there might be room in other people’s games for two dedicated healing classes, but I prefer streamlining them.

That notion of elemental healing is a nice throwback to Elemental Companion, and certainly a great idea; it reminds me of Wheel of Time with different threads or “weaves” of magic having different effects… healing with Fire or Water are very different treatments. That was part of my rationale for realigning magic into Spheres. I think that it fundamentally changes how we have to approach healing, and perhaps magic in general though.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Revised Profession: Healer(s)
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2022, 12:36:00 PM »
Lack of impact is more of an issue - and it is even more pronounced for the Healer profession because it is a hybrid profession and, as such, does not get the benefit of extra base spell lists as opposed to pure spellcasters.

I think you mean "because it is a hybrid profession, the Healer gets twice as many extra base lists as a pure spellcaster". Because in RMU, there are no "extra base lists" as such, but the cost of Open and Base lists is the same, so the pure caster gets effectively 10 "extra base lists", while the hybrid gets 20. The Healer has access to plenty of self-buffs through Mentalism and some decent lists in Channeling as well. They are kind of screwed on spell selection compared with the Sorcerer, in that a bunch of the Channeling lists are healing-based and hence pretty redundant. But still better off than the Mystic, whose base lists are all mash ups of Open and Closed lists from their two realms. (The Mystic, not the Healer, is the profession whose viability I am concerned with. And we got no or almost no playtest feedback on that profession.)

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  I would even say that I would expect at least part of that effort to go to spells that are useful in non-combat (or non-combat recovery) situations, but are useful for other activities (travel, social interactions, subterfuge, whatever).

They have access to most of these already, and the GM should be able to take into account social factors like a magical doctor generally being seen more positively than the scruffy mercenary that is the typical "adventurer". A little free healing will win friends pretty much anywhere, no other spells needed.  And there is Sound's Way to overcome language barriers. Calm Spirits might also be counted into the "social interaction" bucket, in part. But for the rest...

Combat? -- Barrier Law (control the battlefield), Light's Way, Spell Defense, Calm Spirits (mostly to prevent combat, but some tactical options), Anticipations, Attack Avoidance, Brilliance, Damage Resistance, Seemings****, Spell Resistance, Telekinesis, Gas Manipulation, Liquid Manipulation, Speed
Travel? -- Light's Way, Lofty Movements, Purifications, Weather Ways, Creations, Locating Ways, Mounted Ways, Brilliance, Mind's Door, Movement
Subterfuge? -- Lofty Movements, Sound's Way, Cloaking, Seemings, Telekinesis, Sense Mastery, Shifting
Whatever? -- Detection Mastery, Light's Way*, Nature's Law, Weather Ways**, Locating Ways, Lore, Symbolic Ways***, Brilliance*, Delving, Detections, Gas Manipulation, Liquid Manipulation, Mind Mastery, Solid Manipulation

* Even if people don't need healing at the moment, being able to produce light without the risks of fire should always offer a chance to make a little coin.
** Another list that you can hire out or do giveaways for popularity (although you need to be better than those around you, as demand isn't as endless as for light)
*** You should probably be able to figure out how to make coin out of this list, too.
**** Probably a little creative thinking will let Seemings help out in a fair number of social interactions

This all seems more like an ideological objection to healing-centric professions than the result of actually playing one and finding it too limited (in RMU, as opposed to previous versions... in RM2, you were doing well to have all your Base lists by 3rd level). RMU casters have a lot of flexibility and can and should develop beyond their base lists (*especially* hybrids). The Healer can already buff himself quite well, if he so chooses, and being able to buff others would go against the feel of the profession. It could be more appropriate for the Lay Healer, perhaps as an alternative base list to replace Prosthetics.
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