Topic: So..

[Peter R]

I guess i am one of the ?majority? that likes RM generic, because i want to be able to mix fantasy with sci fi campaigns, as for example when my Spacemaster group goes to low tech worlds. I also want backwards compatibility, and have no interest in a setting like Cyradon.

One exception might be the Darkspace universe, but i will admit that setting RMU in Darkspace would be insane.

Nothing has ever stopped me using a game designed for one setting for a home brew game, anything can be made more generic. In fact as I have never like LotR one of the first things I did when I discovered MERP and RM was remove the Lots elements from it to use in my own D&D world.

I would not recognise Cyradon if I landed there even by mistake so I cannot comment on it. The point is though that 'generic' never got a potential customer excited.

[Hurin]

The point is though that 'generic' never got a potential customer excited.

Possibly, but DnD and Pathfinder do ok. GURPs did too back in the day.

[Spectre771]

There is a terrible conundrum in that the established community won't buy in because there are only 4 core books and the public at large are unlikely to buy in if you have to buy 4 core books.

I can attest to this.  I wanted to get my players going in GURPS Supers.  I am *supposed* to have four 'core books' total to play just the Supers aspect of the game. 

Basic Set: Character
Basic Set: Campaigns
Supers
Powers

I have 3 of 4 books because I was already at $100 without shipping.  Having read through the books, I could have skipped the Powers book to save some cash. 

This is the reality the publisher is facing though.  Books are roughly $35 USD.  At three core books, the player is looking at $100+.  At four core books I'm seriously considering if this trip is really necessary.  It's certainly not going to leave me much extra to by supplemental material.

[Cory Magel]

Existing players aren't afraid of it, that actually know what RM is really like.  It's those who never bothered to learn it, that think it's overly complex, that are afraid and I think it's that history that needs to be overcome.  That would require RMU at least has the appearance of being simplified.  Regardless of if the people playing it now think it has been I don't think it remotely gives the appearance of that.

[jdale]

Three or four books as a core seems pretty normal to me. E.g. Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual. You could drop the monster manual if you plan to have stats for the creatures in modules and campaign books, but then you have modules and campaign books. I also have Mage The Awakening on my shelf, but it relies on the separate World of Darkness rulebook, and neither of them have any meaningful amount of information about creatures etc. And I have GURPS, I'm not going to count but it takes up more than 2' of shelf space....

No, I think what people object to most in RM is that you need to look things up on a table any time you make an attack (potentially twice), cast a spell (potentially twice), make a moving maneuver, or try to resist an effect. In 1st edition D&D, you also needed to look at a table to make an attack (once) or resist an effect, but already by 2nd edition you didn't need a table for attacks, and at some point (also 2nd edition?) you didn't need them for saves either. RMU does basically remove the need for tables for casting spells, making maneuvers, or resisting effects (there are tables that give examples for partial and absolute successes but they are really optional) but at the end of the day there's still going to be pages of charts for attacks. We've decided that's worthwhile for the detail they bring, but it's always going to be a hard sell to someone coming from a system where that was not required.

[Dr Jim]

RM definitely sits at the simulationist end of the spectrum but how popular is the genre in today's market? The only other popular simulationist game that springs to mind is Shadowrun, while I can think of quite a few popular games with a lighter ruleset.
James

[Witchking20k]

Three or four books as a core seems pretty normal to me. E.g. Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual.
Except that every version of D&D is released as a starter set with all the updated material needed to play a core set of races/classes and a module.  Ie. A paired down version attached to a setting.

[jdale]

The Starter Sets are not rulebooks, they don't even have rules for making characters, just character presets. It's an adventure, some pregenerated characters, and just enough rules to run them. It doesn't remove the need to buy the rulebooks if you decide you actually want to play the game. There's definitely room to create some kind of intro product, whether it's like that, or RMX, or whatever. That's something you do after your rules are finalized though.

But I think the Starter Sets are basically irrelevant when it comes to figuring out how many books you need.

[Hurin]

I do think a starter set for RM is a really good idea (not sure who first suggested it, but it wasn't me-- maybe Peter?).

[Nightblade42]

Rolemaster shouldn't be released.  The revision should be completed, then paired down and customized to a setting like Cyradon and the resulting game should be released as it's own title.  You can add the "powered by the Rolemaster engine" blurb if you want.  As was the original plan years and years ago.  Revise the rules, release them as part of a creative work (a copyrightable asset) and develop support products.  Rebuild the RM brand not by waiving the RM flag, but by using it as part of new and interesting creative game worlds.

Rolemaster as a game engine, not a game in its own right.
I totally agree with you but I think we could be a very small minority.

Add me to that minority!

Nightblade ->--

[Cory Magel]

I do think a starter set for RM is a really good idea (not sure who first suggested it, but it wasn't me-- maybe Peter?).

Run Out The Guns! is probably a good example of this for RM.

[Peter R]

Three or four books as a core seems pretty normal to me. E.g. Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual. You could drop the monster manual if you plan to have stats for the creatures in modules and campaign books, but then you have modules and campaign books.

Comparing RM to D&D is like me saying I have a bicep, Roger Federer has a bicep, therefore I can beat him at tennis.

The PHB/DMG/MM trio is a long established formula for the most successful rpg of all time. They have an existing user base of millions.

You also said the starter sets do not have character creation rules. That is not true. I have the starter set for 5e and it had a limited number of classes and limited options for those classes but the first thing they take you through is the char gen process.

[Peter R]

I do think a starter set for RM is a really good idea (not sure who first suggested it, but it wasn't me-- maybe Peter?).

I think that was my fault. But, several years ago I said there should be a 'lite' version of RM. The industry has moved on from those now. What RM needs is a Quickstart guide, no char gen, pre-gen characters, basic mechanics and a starting adventure, all in about 50 pages that looks gorgeous to flip though and makes you want/need/desire to own the full game.

That is what today's players expect to see from a game that wants their money, time and effort to learn. That is RPG try before you buy. Not big or clever but very basic marketing to new customers that works if the product is a good one. Always has, always will.

[Witchking20k]

To be honest I am a huge RMX guy and have been pumping it on these boards for years and years because of what you just said Peter.  It's the only version of RM I ever brought to a game table and people were willing to pick up and thumb through.  That alone shows some value. 

To be clear though, I don't want to compare D&D to RM.  I want RM to succeed and am looking at other successful formulas.  Having an free/inexpensive "try me" game is the most common way to attract new business.  The starter box set is a D&D tradition.  ICE needs a ready to run adventure with 4 pre-gen characters as a free download.  The rules contained walk you through that adventure.  But, before that product is launched, there needs to be system/setting book ready for the same setting.  This book would expand the rules by adding CharGen/Advancement, maybe a couple more professions etc but it would still not be the full RM rule set.  It would be the RM rule-set customized to that setting and named to not be dismissed immediately by long-time RPGers who made up their minds about RM in 1991. 

[intothatdarkness]

Rolemaster shouldn't be released.  The revision should be completed, then paired down and customized to a setting like Cyradon and the resulting game should be released as it's own title.  You can add the "powered by the Rolemaster engine" blurb if you want.  As was the original plan years and years ago.  Revise the rules, release them as part of a creative work (a copyrightable asset) and develop support products.  Rebuild the RM brand not by waiving the RM flag, but by using it as part of new and interesting creative game worlds.

Rolemaster as a game engine, not a game in its own right.
I totally agree with you but I think we could be a very small minority.

Add me to that minority!

Nightblade ->--

I suppose I fall into this grouping as well based on my constant harping that the RM engine should be designed with genres other than fantasy in mind (or at least the ability to easily shift the core to a different genre). I've converted the RM core to a number of different settings, and it's perhaps uniquely suited for this.

[Witchking20k]

I have as well.  I think that is one of the exercises that gave me a new perspective on what makes the "game engine".

[Nightblade42]

I think RMX was a step in the right direction.  However, to attract new players, I think the free/cheap starter pack (pre-gen PC's; starting scenario; basic ruleset) is a must.  I would lean toward the free myself; as more people are likely to at least download the package and check it out.

I recently got my hands on the latest version of Vampire: The Requium (5th edition) Starter Pack.  That's exactly what it is.  Some pre-gen PC's; an interesting setting with a starting scenario that would be easy to expand upon into a full campaign (either via official modules a GM could purchase or for the GM to develop themselves) & a quick guide to the basics of the ruleset so that you can get a group up & running with little effort.  I've played V:tR in the past & was curious about the new edition.  But I think the adventure scenario is what grabbed my attention the most.

RPG's are often compared to living novels.  A good novel is all about story.  What is the story RM is trying to tell?  I'm not sure, there's been so many over the years (Middle Earth; Shadow World; Cyradon; SM Imperium; SM Privateers; Cyberspace; Robin Hood; Mythic Egypt; Ancient Greece; Vikings; Arabian Nights; Ancient Rome; Dark Space; Time Raiders; 17th Century France; 17th Century Pirates; Shades Of Darkness & Time Raiders - never mind all the homebrew worlds all the other GMs have been using since the 80's!).  Again, one could compare to D&D (Dragonlance; Forgotten Realms; Ravenloft; Dark Sun; etc…), but I really think we have to stop doing that.  Do we really want to simply follow D&D's lead, or do we want to follow our own unique path?

That was the successful formula for RM in the early days.  It was an unique alternative to the game that started it all & it won a lot of fans because of its uniqueness.  In fact, many of us are still here touting the merits of RM a few decades later.  So maybe its time to be innovative again.  It definately wouldn't hurt.

Just my thoughts, take 'em for what they're worth & keep rolling 66's 

Nightblade ->--

[Nightblade42]

p.s. As for a setting I think Shadow World should be the default.  Either that, ro some new setting that has no previous association with RM.

Nightblade ->--

[Witchking20k]

I agree in many ways.  I think though that (at least from a business perspective) the focus of ICE should be getting RM into as many hands as possible.  I would use and existing SW book that already has a set of maps and some good, full colour artwork, and extract/expand one of the adventures (Xa'ar/Green Gryphon come to mind).  It doesn't have to be an epic.  It has to let a group of players use the core dice rolls and run through a couple of combats.  I would however focus on a few of the things that make RM different than other games in the walkthrough to demonstrate it's uniqueness.

[Majyk]

Agreed, and stat out a group of RM-iconic PCs like the ones on the front of old RM book covers and show level progression @1st, 5th and 20th lvl.

3/3.5 and Paizo’s 3.75 did that and drew the eye to their books as those same characters show up on each cover time and again.
It got me to buy/collect some of ‘em.  Great non-linguistic marketing!