Topic: Player clerics and their religions

[EltonJ]

I have a question.  Would a cleric PC be regarded as outside their particular religion? I know this is highly dependent on a particular GM's world system.  But I just had a wild thought: many of the training packages in the Channeling Companion are not for adventuring type clerics or animists (druids).  They would have congregations to take care of.

What do you all think?

[Ralfsi]

My druid, is tasked by the orders elders to find out why there has been I disturbance in the magic och the Emerald forest, and why Unlife is on the rise again.

In my mind, there is always a way to make it fit.
A classic Cleric can be on a missionary mission,  or some holy mission.

[Jengada]

As Ralfsi said, there's always a way to make it fit.

There will likely be sedentary clerics in population centers, tending their monasteries, temples, etc. Many religions try to expand their worship base with missionaries, so there is an easy justification for a wandering cleric. Maybe the cleric has to report in at times, or maybe they're sent to such hinterlands that they're on their own for long periods.
If there is a rival religion/deity, clerics may be sent out to monitor their activities and keep them from establishing a foothold.
Some religions would have no use for buildings or permanent locations. I have a deity of the jungle beasts in my campaign, his only clerics are basically lone forest dwellers who seek to protect the creatures. One may train acolytes and dispatch them to new areas, but they live among the wilds.
I have a deity of water and fertility. Every ship has one of her priestesses on board to protect the crew. There's a priestess in almost any brothel. Other priestesses, including a PC cleric, wander the land serving as midwives, looking for signs of the god of demons (her rival), helping farmers with their livestock, etc.
You can always use a "station" as a threat, too. If a PC cleric isn't serving the church properly, maybe their superiors assign them to a problem parish/temple/monastery. And the adventure stems from that location, or is intrigue within that setting.

[jdale]

Particular religions, especially those devoted to individual deities, will tend to have some kind of agenda. Unless it is a god of congregations, those interests can lead anywhere interesting. It may be that the clerics who are sent to deal with those things are the ones who don't have an obligation to a particular congregation, or something might have happened to that congregation (death is obvious, but they might have been dispersed, or moved away for regional or economic reasons) that frees up that cleric, or maybe the cleric is chosen for a purpose against their own wishes and really would like to go back home if they could. Just like a prophet may not be completely thrilled at their new and unexpected burden.

[B Hanson]

While the "Channelers Handbook" is specific to Shadow World, it's should be general enough to use the framework in any world. I discuss adventuring PCs on page 5. I'm also writing adventure series for each Diety to give PC's and PC Clerics paths to adventures.

https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15879.0;attach=4373

[GrumpyOldFart]

I have a God of War, Politics, and Assassination. A lot of his clerics are soldiers.

Arra the Storm Queen has a lot of wandering clerics. So does Eschi, Goddess of Knowledge and Secrets.

You can usually brainstorm a reason for a cleric to be a wanderer if you really want to. I even have a Healer of the Goddess of Friendship, Family and Home who's going wandering soon.

[EltonJ]

Hmm.  Thanks all.

Although, if I broached the subject for Eberron, I would be stepping on egg shells. I just realized something, Arawai (the goddess of fertility in Eberron) would have clerics in the brothels (actually, thanks to one of you making that connection).  I think people who post on the Eberron channel are immature -- That they can't handle controversial topics about their fantasy.

Ahem, I just wanted to say that people here are much more mature.  When I buy Wizards of the Coast (yeah, when), I'll own Eberron.  This will also mean that our company boards will have these "special snowflakes."

What I was wondering about this question was something that happened to one of my characters on a Pathfinder PbP. He converted from an Inquisitor class to the Paladin class.  What was strange about this is that he saw his goddess.  Divine intervention. And I was thinking about how the Church might feel about one of their inquisitors becoming a paladin after having a divine experience.

In reality, it's happened.  Joseph Smith had a divine visitation in the real world, and no one believed him when he told them. So I thought because of what really happened, that in Fantasy a player's Cleric would be "special" or be "apart."

[MisterK]

Divine intervention can happen, but as you pointed out, it requires confirmation by the church to become part of canon (and, as such, recognized as an actual intervention by the divine). However, it is typically much more frequent in fantasy worlds because gods often manifest in much more tangible and direct ways and people are fairly open to the idea that the gods have a hand in their lives. Historically, polytheistic religions had a similar outlook on divine intervention: the gods were 'in the world' rather than 'out of the world' - since gods were embodiment of natural and man-made phenomena, having them manifest often was a logical consequence, whereas monotheistic religions defined gods as distant and, as such, much less likely to manifest. Furthermore, the more centralised the religion and the more powerful the church is, the more controlling it will get, including on verification of 'miracles'.

So, really, it depends on the religion. I can easily see some religions taking the report of a divine intervention as "OK, you met the god(dess), (s)he gave you a divine mission, fine. The road is that way.". I can also see other religions being much stricter on acknowledgement of such intervention and requiring a full inquiry, with interview of unbiased witnesses and a study by theologians of the church to make sure that the divine intervention is real and is not heresy (diverges from canon), because the last thing a powerful, centralised church wants is a miracle that invalidates part of the dogma.

At worst, the character that was the recipient of a divine intervention might be branded a heretic and hunted by the church so that they don't "pollute the minds of the faithful with their lies".

[gog]

For the origianl question, many faiths also may have a period of basic training - do the general congregations care and other basics - before setting people out on specific further tasks. This is quiet common irl.

[jdale]

A single casting of Commune I (12th level Cleric base) will answer the question of whether a visitation of the deity was true or not. Plenty of other methods, too, depending on the lists available. Magic can significantly alter our interactions with the unknown.

[Cory Magel]

When writing the Channeling Companion we were trying to keep in mind that the material would potentially be used for NPC's and that there are groups who are heavier into the Role-play than the Roll-play.  We, and I suspect a lot of RM users, are more along the lines of hack-and-slash or wargamers than we are the dressing up and talking in funny voices type.  So we made some effort to not ignore one group.

[EltonJ]

A single casting of Commune I (12th level Cleric base) will answer the question of whether a visitation of the deity was true or not. Plenty of other methods, too, depending on the lists available. Magic can significantly alter our interactions with the unknown.

Ah, you're right.  Thanks.  Magic does change things.

When writing the Channeling Companion we were trying to keep in mind that the material would potentially be used for NPC's and that there are groups who are heavier into the Role-play than the Roll-play.  We, and I suspect a lot of RM users, are more along the lines of hack-and-slash or wargamers than we are the dressing up and talking in funny voices type.  So we made some effort to not ignore one group.

Okay, you were right to write the Channeling Companion the way you did.

[MisterK]

A single casting of Commune I (12th level Cleric base) will answer the question of whether a visitation of the deity was true or not. Plenty of other methods, too, depending on the lists available. Magic can significantly alter our interactions with the unknown.

Of course, but that doesn't prevent politics. Even if the head priest Communes and receives a 'yes' to the question "was X visited by <god's name> ?", if what X says about his visitation goes against the dogma and the canon, then there are plenty of ways to make X either a nonfactor or a heretic depending on whether the church wants to make an example or not. And they might not even act against the will of the deity: even a visitation from a god can be misinterpreted and actually lead to heresy.

After all, if the god let the church set doctrine for so long, then doctrine must be right. Otherwise, surely the deity would have intervened much sooner, right ?

[EltonJ]

A single casting of Commune I (12th level Cleric base) will answer the question of whether a visitation of the deity was true or not. Plenty of other methods, too, depending on the lists available. Magic can significantly alter our interactions with the unknown.

Of course, but that doesn't prevent politics. Even if the head priest Communes and receives a 'yes' to the question "was X visited by <god's name> ?", if what X says about his visitation goes against the dogma and the canon, then there are plenty of ways to make X either a nonfactor or a heretic depending on whether the church wants to make an example or not. And they might not even act against the will of the deity: even a visitation from a god can be misinterpreted and actually lead to heresy.

After all, if the god let the church set doctrine for so long, then doctrine must be right. Otherwise, surely the deity would have intervened much sooner, right ?

Sadly, that would be the case.

[jdale]

Sure, there's plenty of room for mischief. Even validating the visitation itself doesn't mean the message received was understood properly, one could question that without any malicious intent. And Commune is only viable if someone is willing to ask the question in the first place.

When the answers are directly available, and the deity is one that is willing to intervene directly in the world, directly opposing the intentions of one's deity seems like a poor career move. But of course in the real world, where the divine is... let's just say less directly interventionist... people do get into those kinds of conflicts with the ultimate authority of their faith, e.g., https://www.reuters.com/world/pope-francis-dismisses-conservative-us-bishop-strickland-2023-11-11/  And there is biblical precedent for arguing with god (and winning the argument!). So maybe it would still happen.

[MisterK]

Sure, there's plenty of room for mischief. Even validating the visitation itself doesn't mean the message received was understood properly, one could question that without any malicious intent. And Commune is only viable if someone is willing to ask the question in the first place.

When the answers are directly available, and the deity is one that is willing to intervene directly in the world, directly opposing the intentions of one's deity seems like a poor career move. But of course in the real world, where the divine is... let's just say less directly interventionist... people do get into those kinds of conflicts with the ultimate authority of their faith, e.g., https://www.reuters.com/world/pope-francis-dismisses-conservative-us-bishop-strickland-2023-11-11/  And there is biblical precedent for arguing with god (and winning the argument!). So maybe it would still happen.

I must admit that I do not consider the monotheistic faiths that are prevalent in the real world as good examples of what is typical of fantasy worlds. I would use the ancient world polytheistic faiths as more relevant examples, and this carries over to the gods themselves (especially the greek pantheon, because who doesn't like a chaotic neutral basket of gods ? ). They are not omnipotent nor omniscient. They often misdirect their own followers, or toy with them. They bear more grudges than a dwarf revenant. They are vain, conceited, jealous, prone to bouts of anger, overconfident and vulnerable to flattery. They also consider that the integrity of their places of worship (temples) are more important than the moral compass of the priests. Basically, they are very powerful divas. And this is why people can relate to them and see them as part of the world - because they are fundamentally like them.

So a god might very well send a vision to a faithful, yet leave the priesthood to act as they should if they want to stay in power. They *might* help their chosen mortal further, and they *might* send warnings to the priests, but mortals are tools and toys, no more (or less) important than that. What is important is the power struggle between gods.