Topic: Chain casting of spells

[pastaav]

I am considering a major change for spell casting that I would like input on.

The basic problem I am trying to adress is that certain professions like Armsmaster and Paladin need to cast lots of combat buffs to achieve their potential. At one level it sounds fair that these professions need to plan for the fight to be effective...but in practice it sucks. The players get frustrated when the one spell per round limit prevent them from use their spells in ambush situations when their assistance is most needed. The ruling feels worse when some support character cast Haste on them and they can not put the spell to real use.

The basic idea goes like this...
1. The casting level of a spell is increased by the level of spells cast prior in the round. Thus a character who just cast a level 5 spell can cast a additional level 3 spell as if it was level 8 spell. If he then want to cast a level 2 spell he can do so if he cast it is a a level 15 spell (2+5+8). This spell would require 15 pp and have rather nasty penalties. This only apply to the actual casting of the spell, when the spell hits the target it is resolved using normal rules.
2. The limit of one spell per rounds does not exist anymore and spell casting is possible if the character has enough unused activity, the needed power points and dares to challenge the penalities of casting what is comparable with a rather high level spell.

Questions...
*What professions can abuse this?
*Is it a problem that the ruling promote casting low levels first?
*Should something similar be adopted for activation of magic items? If so how should that ruling look like?
*Are there monsters that would benefit to much from this kind of rule?

[Dark Schneider]

We use a system that allows to use 2 spells per round, while you have enough activity, but only 1 attack spell per round allowed, not for abuse.

As most defense/support combat spells are instantaneous, this gives them the utility they originally is supposed to have. Sincerely I think that using an instantaneous increase range and can't use the spell with increased range in the same round is simply a flapdoodle, an obstinacy in a rule for 1 spell per round with no basis, as the defense/support instantaneous spells tell us otherwise clearly.

What is the advantage of develop the deflect spell if I can't deflect and cast my attack one in the same round, if I have to cast continuously round after round the defensive spell?.

As it requires:

• Your character to be allowed to learn it, profession requirement.
• Spend DPs
• Spend PPs to use it

I see no problem about using more than 1 spell per round (we use 2), but limit to only 1 attack because abuse, for haste or word spells cases.

[Arioch]

*What professions can abuse this?

Lots, I fear. Wizards are the first that comes to my mind (they already can store and cast multiple spells... this HR would muliptly their power). Evil clerics would become nastier, too (multiple Dark Stun in the first round of an ambush... ouch!). Basically any profession with a good amount of instant spells at his disposal.
Maybe you could limit abuse by moving the % needed to cast instant attack spells to 75%.

*Is it a problem that the ruling promote casting low levels first?

No, I don't think so.

*Should something similar be adopted for activation of magic items? If so how should that ruling look like?

I would leave magical items as they are: finding ways of abusing of them is even easier than abusing of spell casting imo.

*Are there monsters that would benefit to much from this kind of rule?

Any monster with access to semis base lists (like Pale V demons IIRC) or lists with lots of instant spells, I think.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Hmm.... Sounds like what you need is something like a new spell list, which allows for stringing spells together, something like the Spell Coordination list (Arcane - RoCo I).

Something that allows a caster to prepare, ahead of time, a number of spells that he could trigger/cast all at a single time..

[providence13]

Avalanche Spell Enhancement List....

Power Manipulation: Essence Inertia skill... 
After casting the first spell, make a roll to chain the next one together with the first, halving the bonus for the third, quarter for the fourth. GM might what to make a roll for Power/Tap Addiction each time.

Maybe using a fumble chart from Arcane..

[Dark Schneider]

Power Manipulation: Essence Inertia skill...

A skills sounds better, not doing all with spell lists always, as this is more a capability for the spell caster.

To gain game speed, use ranks instead bonus with a maneuver roll, every X ranks you can cast an extra spell, with a penalty like the additional attacks in styles with new CC, like a cummulative -20 for bolts attacks, or a -5 for BAR or ball attacks, etc.

This penalty doesn't care for defensive/support spells, that is correct IMO.

[Nders]

to avoid abuse you could say that if more than one of the same spell is cast in the same round e.g. dark stunning then the attack level is the level of the spell this will also keep the sorcerer and mentalist balanced in spite of them having level 2 and 1 stunning spells respectively

[pastaav]

Hmm.... Sounds like what you need is something like a new spell list, which allows for stringing spells together, something like the Spell Coordination list (Arcane - RoCo I).

Something that allows a caster to prepare, ahead of time, a number of spells that he could trigger/cast all at a single time..

Such list already exist in RMSS Arcane companion, but I really don't think that it would be a realistic option for a semi to buy an extra spell list. If access should be limited I am much more inclined to use a talent that can be purchased after creation of the character if the player spend enough dp. On the other hand I am hoping this can be a general rule for my game.

[pastaav]

We use a system that allows to use 2 spells per round, while you have enough activity, but only 1 attack spell per round allowed, not for abuse.

That is a very good idea.

[pastaav]

*What professions can abuse this?

Lots, I fear. Wizards are the first that comes to my mind (they already can store and cast multiple spells... this HR would muliptly their power). Evil clerics would become nastier, too (multiple Dark Stun in the first round of an ambush... ouch!). Basically any profession with a good amount of instant spells at his disposal.
Maybe you could limit abuse by moving the % needed to cast instant attack spells to 75%.

Good thoughts, but I am not sure it is required.

Suppose we have a evil channeler that intends to use multiple Dark Stun spells. If he is level 8 and chains 3 such spells together he spend 2 pp for the first spell and has +10 to the spell casting. The second spell costs 4 pp and he has +5 to the spell casting. The third spell cost 6 pp and he has zero bonus on the spell casting. To sum up 12 pp to potentially stun three persons. I am not that convinced that this compares well compared to spending less pp on Dark Blinding or Dark Sleep.  

If he want to cast a higher level spell to get more bang for the bucks so to say the number of PP soon get rather massive. Three level 3 spells cost (3+6+9) 18 pp. Lots of PP to spend for low level effects.

BTW I don't think Wizards is that a big issue since the Spell Coordination spell list explicitly forbid against any spell casting while a spell is stored. He can walk into the combat with a an extra attack spell in the first round, but the cast for casting more attack spells will be large unless the stored spell is low level and mostly harmless.

[pastaav]

Very many thanks for input...I very much enjoyed all the comments even though I did not have time to comment everything.

[Nejira]

but in practice it sucks. The players get frustrated when the one spell per round limit prevent them from use their spells in ambush situations when their assistance is most needed.

Wouldn´t it be easier to just increase the duration of buff spells? I had similar issues at one time, even made a ruling with a spell matrix construct which kept buff spells running. More coming from the annoyance of keeping track of the duration of ongoing spells. Now I am considering just ruling buff spells last a scene (EG: One fight) and that´s it. You can´t stack effects so only one buff spell which boosts defence or offence or what it may be.

[Arioch]

BTW I don't think Wizards is that a big issue since the Spell Coordination spell list explicitly forbid against any spell casting while a spell is stored. He can walk into the combat with a an extra attack spell in the first round, but the cast for casting more attack spells will be large unless the stored spell is low level and mostly harmless.

Auto Response + Bypass stored spell (on the Spell Coordination list). Or simply release first the spell stored with Spell Store I, then Spell Store II, etc... all in the same round. Obviously I'm talking about middle to high level Wizards (beyond the 15th level), lower level Wizards will be much more limited.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

The basic idea goes like this...
1. The casting level of a spell is increased by the level of spells cast prior in the round. Thus a character who just cast a level 5 spell can cast a additional level 3 spell as if it was level 8 spell. If he then want to cast a level 2 spell he can do so if he cast it is a a level 15 spell (2+5+8). This spell would require 15 pp and have rather nasty penalties. This only apply to the actual casting of the spell, when the spell hits the target it is resolved using normal rules.

I think merely adding the spell levels is a good idea but not enough.
I'd suggest to multiply the spell cost by its rank i.e. the first spell is x1, the second is x2, the third is x3, etc. In your example, the first spell (a level 5) is considered a level 5 spell, the second spell (level 3) would be considered a level 11 (5 + 3x2) and the third spell a level 22 (5 + 11 + 3x2).

You can also limit the number of PP a spellcaster can use in a round, for instance up to his level.

[Witchking20k]

I've always prefered Spell Casting to be skill based, and see no reason why you couldn't cast an Instantaneous spell & one other spell per round.  Heap it with penalties and more importantly increase the fumble range!  LOL  handling excessive amounts of Essence should be dangerous!

[pastaav]

I have spent some time looking at the Wizards lists...and I can't really that much problem with the Spell Coordination list. The Wizard will with those spells be able to have very many spells going off in a round, and IMO that is just like it should be. It is Wizard after all so I can live with them benefitting from the house rule about chain casting.

A worse problem is the Instant Ranging spell from the Spell Hand list. This allow a Wizard to chain cast Instant Ranging and any other spell in a single round for just three extra pp. The balancing factor of Chain Casting rule is the casting penalties of casting a high level spell without preparation, but the Instant Ranging spell allow the Wizard to dodge that. Actually I think the suggestion from OLF solves that issue in a nice way.

In general I think the house rule will balance itself if the spells cost enough pp. Using 22 power points for a level 2 spell is something that should make the players reluctant to use the rule.

[Witchking20k]

Agreed.  I run a game in which you can do anything, at a price.

[Cory Magel]

Allowing one Standard and one Instant spell per round relieved most of the problem for our group. However, I personally allow fairly free use of instant spells (with the limitation that you can't use more than one at a time - i.e. on the same object, attack, whatever).  I figure if they want to burn through all their power points that fast they'll quickly learn they shouldn't.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

PPs are more a concern in RM2 than in RMSS/RMFRP though, imo.

[Witchking20k]

Agree, but if you use the PP exhaustion rules this could also balance itself