Topic: Add on elemental attacks vs elemental resistance

[Marc R]

If the target of an attack has an elemental resistance, say "Resistant to Cold +30 DB / +30 RRs vs cold attacks.

So, if you ice bolt them, they get +30 DB, if they walk into a cold aura that does a 'D' crit if their RR fails, they get +30 to their RR.

Now, you go after them with a broadsword, you cast a spell that lets you do a "Cold Critical of one less severity with melee attacks."

You roll, you get a 20DS result.

Broadsword isn't a cold weapon, so it should still do a 20 'D' Slash result. . .but that means it will also do a 'C' Cold critical. . . .

Should the resistance have any effect here?

Should the enchantment on the sword make it an "Elemental Cold Attack" granting the target +30 DB?

Should you inflict the sword result normally, but reduce the attack by 30 to the 16CS result before inflicting the cold crit? (Thus making it a 'B' rather than a 'C' cold crit.)

Immunity definitely works, in that if the target is "Immune to Cold" they would just ignore ANY cold critical, but elemental resistance would seem to have absolutely no effect in this situation, even if it was a large +50 or +100 resisteance.

[Cormac Doyle]

-30 to the critical roll?

[Balhirath]

-30 to the critical roll?

Thats how I do it.
If you feel that it is too powerful, just use half the bonus. (+30 becomes -15 on the critical roll, +20 becomes -10 on the critical roll an so on.)

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I would say....

The 20 DS stays, but you then apply the 30 DB, and use that NEW result to determine the Cold Critical and only the Cold critical. (i.e. you don't change the attack result for the normal portion of the attack, just the Cold critical portion).


SO the end result is a 20 DS, and a B cold critical.

[Marc R]

So you'd go with this version?

You roll, you get a 20DS result.

Broadsword isn't a cold weapon, so it should still do a 20 'D' Slash result. . .but that means it will also do a 'C' Cold critical. . . .

Should you inflict the sword result normally, but reduce the attack by 30 to the 16CS result before inflicting the cold crit? (Thus making it a 'B' rather than a 'C' cold crit.)

I liked that one best also, unfortunately it's also the one that's most cumbersome to use in play. . .s'not really all that bad though, since the resistance DB is usually an increment of 5 or 10.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

ahmm... mis read what you had put there...

But yes,, that is essentially what  describing.

If the total attack roll with normal DB was 140, then you look at 110 (the +30 from the protection) to determine the cold crit, and keep 140 for the regular damage).

It isn't really that much more cumbersome (unless you are trying to explain it). You are simply looking at the table a second time. And as you said, the increments are in +5 or +10 so the math is easy.

[Arioch]

And what about pure elemental criticals? Like the ones coming from a "Wall of Fire"?
If a character with resistance to fire crosses a Wall of Fire does he take an "A" critical just like every other being?

[Marc R]

I would think yes, that's a fixed crit, no DB or RR involved.

Though I see the angle. . .if you have +50 DB/RR resistance to fire, should it be weaker?

Probably a GM call at that point.

[Arioch]

Yes, the BD/RRs bonus works in almost all situations, but I feel that a character with a high resistance to an element should receive a bonus against this kind of "unavoidable" attacks, too. After all, if he can resist a firebolt or a fireball, why should he be worried by a firewall?
Maybe there should be some kind of critical reduction based on his level of resistance, like a -1 to crit level for each full +20 to BD/RRs bonus?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Yes, the BD/RRs bonus works in almost all situations, but I feel that a character with a high resistance to an element should receive a bonus against this kind of "unavoidable" attacks, too. After all, if he can resist a firebolt or a fireball, why should he be worried by a firewall?
Maybe there should be some kind of critical reduction based on his level of resistance, like a -1 to crit level for each full +20 to BD/RRs bonus?

Actually, I would, in an instance like this, go with using 2/3 of the original bonus/modifier on the crit roll (rounded off to nearest multiple of 5). Thus, a +30 to DB/RR would result in a -20 to a straight crit roll like that given in your example.

This could work just as easily for LM's question as well.

Why 2/3? Simple, attack rolls to 150. Crit rolls go to 100, and 100 is 2/3 of 150.

[Arioch]

Actually, I would, in an instance like this, go with using 2/3 of the original bonus/modifier on the crit roll (rounded off to nearest multiple of 5). Thus, a +30 to DB/RR would result in a -20 to a straight crit roll like that given in your example.

This could work just as easily for LM's question as well.

Why 2/3? Simple, attack rolls to 150. Crit rolls go to 100, and 100 is 2/3 of 150.

I like it, thanks Rasyr! 
Maybe, since there is no way to handle this problem in the books, should it be made an official ruling?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Who knows, it could be....

Let's get some other reactions to it first, before a decision is made. 

[Fidoric]

I don't know if its the right thread to ask, but how would you handle this in Harp ? Crits reduction equal to DB bonus ?

[Marc R]

My only problem with say a -10 to the crit, would be that means "You can't die without an UM 66 roll"

The upgraded resistance types, like "Crit of one less severity" and "Crit of two less severity" only apply a penalty mod to the crit roll when it gets pushed below an A, and you get A-25 and A-50 criticals.

if you're resistant, a push from E to D seems to make more sense than a shift from E to E-10, due to the fact that all the lethal results cluster at the top 10. . .A 20 point resistance would make it almost impossible to crit kill you regardless of crit severity due to the -13 to the crit roll.

There is at least some logic that fits with the add on critical per above.

The Fire Wall thing. . .Unless you say something like "Each 20 points of resistance is equal to 1 column shift of critical for effects that allow no RR" which would make 5 column shifts, or E to nothing, +100, the round number of immunity.

Tough call.

[Old Man]

-30 to the critical roll?

I would do -6 using the old Ambush conversion (6 ranks is 30 OB or move a crit 6).

Ciao,
Old Man

[Dark Schneider]

I like more the idea of reduce the attack for that element and apply the new attack elemental crit, it is really hard to apply?, I see it easy and realistic.

But there are 2 problems:

1) direct crits (as wall of fire): if we reduce the critical roll, then resistance is too powerfull, because you directly remove the deadly results, but as there is no RR then elemental resistance (ER) is useless. Reducing the critical every X resistance is a good option but the problem is the A critical (or B if reduce 2 severity, etc.). In the other hand, a GM can decide that those criticals can't kill directly if you have enough ER (for example an A crit), that it can be perfectly credible. So reducing the crit severity IMO is the best option.

2) area attacks: these attacks don't have skill bonus (they use simply skill rank as bonus), so applying the complete ER can make these attacks useless. A good option could be apply half ER bonus, so if you have +20 DB apply +10 DB against area/breath attacks.

- To finish, I should say that IMO magical defense should be more powerfull than natural defenses, so apply this type of limits only to race resistance, but for magical resistance apply them completely, for example, in the case of area spells, apply half bonus for racial resistance and full bonus to magical resistance.
If we look at the books, we se that defensive spells gives few resistance (powerfull spells give maximum of +20 DB/RR) whiloe we see races that have +30 or more for some elements (as dwarves against fire), or adquiring talents, additionally spells are temporal while natural (racial or talent) resistance is permanent.

If I remember well, this is the same case than armors (see DBs table), against area attacks armor DB is halved, but if magical armor you use full DB.

[markc]

 In the past for specific weapons and items; I think I have used all of the ideas above but in general I use the DB bonus if the weapon is made of ice or has an aura of ice, if the weapon simply cast a spell that does a cold crit I adjust the crit by the DB bonus.

 IMO it all comes down to what the weapon is and where the DB bonus comes from.

MDC

[yammahoper]

Yet a spell such as firewall is not meant to be uber powerful, doing only A or B crits in most versions.  A spell that resist fire probably should remove most danger from the wall, creating the very cool image of strolling through the fire with no concern for it.

As such, I have always had heat resistance spells and the like reduce the crit by the bonus provided.  Otherwise, the spells are kinda lame and hardly worth throwing up (particularly the ones that require the cleric to skip combat and concentrate to protect the targets).

Defensive spells should always be tougher than the attack spells, and reliable.  The idea that a level 50 spell such as protection true would provide only a -5 crit mod is silly.  Why even learn defensive spells when luck will serve you better?  When defensive spells are weak, it is ALWAYS better to perform an attack rather than waste a round on some dorky defensive spell that might not even be needed in the fight.

And remember, defensive spells work on NPC's the same way.

lynn

[Dax]

Lynn is right about everything he said !

I even do have the feeling that the spell list Elemental Shilds is too weak. But it is only a feeling, because I didn't played RM that much.  :'(

[markc]

 As a sid enot in the past I have doubled all elemental bonuses from spells to "beef" up the nature of the spells.

MDC