Topic: Immortal Elves

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

heh...   young elves == tadpoles (or maybe baby sea turtles)

[dutch206]

Amazing...This conversation has been going on for eight months now, and we still haven't reached a consensus.

I have always considered High Humans to be "Mortal Half-Elves"   (ala Elros Tar-Mianstir).  I consider RM Half-Elves to be Elves with a little human blood in their family tree.  (What the drow of the Forgotten Realms would call "Not-People").

I would say that the "Race penalty" for being an elf is fairly clear:  a (-20) penalty to Fear resistance rolls.  I am sure the elves would rather it was described as a 'healthy sense of self-preservation', but dwarves would call it cowardice.

However, none of this answers the original question:  What to do about 'immortal' characters?  Nobody seems to remember that human arch-mages have a lifespan of 3000+ years according to the rules in RMC I.  Why isn't anybody pitching a fit about that?

[yammahoper]

Nobody seems to remember that human arch-mages have a lifespan of 3000+ years according to the rules in RMC I.  Why isn't anybody pitching a fit about that?

How many GM's have ever used this in thier game seems a more precise question?  I have played in many games and have never seen a GM use an arcane dragon spell user as anything other than an NPC, not counting my own games, were I have allowed two PC's to go through the "ritual of acension."

Age hardly ever enters into games that I have seen.  Few care about such minutia.

lynn

[RandalThor]

In wars, they send out their scary young folk, so even then the adults rarely die. Adventuring Elves are allowed out alone because the young are expendable. It isn't that Elves don't care about their children. They do, just with a sort of detachment that humans find hard to grasp.

Ok you got an idea point,now here's a laugh point. "scary young folk...." hilarious!

[rdanhenry]

The Adept in the Alchemy Companion could not only gain Elf-equivalent immortality, he could cast off the shackles of the body and Ascend (to use Stargate SG-1 speak).

I imagine a human being who went to all the trouble to become immortal-unless-killed would be quite cautious.

[yammahoper]

The Adept in the Alchemy Companion could not only gain Elf-equivalent immortality, he could cast off the shackles of the body and Ascend (to use Stargate SG-1 speak).

I imagine a human being who went to all the trouble to become immortal-unless-killed would be quite cautious.

Not if he knows the level 95 spell BODY WISH.

lynn

[dutch206]

Doing some research in the vast hall of academia which is my RPG book collection, I came across a discussion of this topic.  (ie. why don't long-lived races rule the world?)  I found it, in of all places, 2nd edition dnd (TSR, 1989). 

They came up with two alternatives to encourage people to play humans:

1)  artificial level restrictions.  (IMHO  )  Dwarves, elves, halflings, etc.... can't progress past level 20 in the professions favored by their races.

2)  different XP requirements for level advancement. (IMHO  )  Races with a lifespan of less than 150 years advance at the normal rate.  Races with a lifespan of 151-600 years advance at twice the listed rate (20,000 to go from level 1 to 2).  Races with a lifespan of over 601 years are considered effectively immortal and advance at four times the normal experience rate.  (40,000 to go from level 1 to 2).

Either of these situations would end the "I want to play a one thousand year old elf!" problem.  (Especially when combined with the (-20) fear RR modifier I mentioned earlier.)

[RandalThor]

As for the options:

1) A very archaic & out-dated method (IMO) for dealing with the situation. Totally meta-game.

2) Maybe realistic, but very hard (or impossible) to deal with in a game - unless you have players that want to see the other players rocket past them in levels. (If you do, you have a more laid-back gaming group than I have ever had in my 30+ years of gaming!)

[Moriarty]

Elves are not immortal, but they usually don't die from sickness or old age.
Like everything else in the physical world they will eventually die and crumble to dust. It's not a matter of 'if', but a matter of 'when'.

As for the concept of immortality in roleplaying, I find it very interesting from a philosophical point of view. One that was also explored in the roleplaying game Vampire. Immortality is one of those things one can only discover the true meaning of through years of roleplaying.
For example, and this is only a few aspects:

If you are immortal, why risk your life going on adventure? It turns out that is the wrong question.
If you decide to live forever and in doing so take no risk - and going new places and meeting other people always carries an element of risk - what is the point of living?

Elves are passionate beings - they care about something. Maybe that something isn't danger and riches, but something else. They will to some extent take risks to seek, protect, or destroy that something.
If you don't care about anything, what is the point of living?

I seem to recall it was written somewhere that elves who lose their passion for living - not living as in staying alive, but the true sense of knowing how to live - will in fact wither and die from old age.

[Nejira]

I think the problem lies in RM background from where they originally took the races (halfling, highmen, immortal elves). It carries a certain flavor with it that may not always be what you are looking for in a particular setting. I always made my own races so if I had immortals (I didnt) it would be of my own design

I don?t know how to "fix" the situation or even if its meant to be "fixed". All I can suggest is to leave immortals out of your game/setting if thats what you want

[Marc R]

I think the lack of consensus here is due to the fact that elves are different in each campaignworld, which leads to problems with agreeing on how they think or develop.

[Arioch]

I think the lack of consensus here is due to the fact that elves are different in each campaignworld, which leads to problems with agreeing on how they think or develop.

OTOH this gives us a lot of interesting considerations and new ideas for our campaigns 

[Marc R]

too true, I suspect that reading this thread expecting to hear new ideas you'll be happy. . .but a search for consensus will lead to disappointment.

If we want to delve odd angles, the last time I used elves extensively:
(Credit for the original inspiration to Orson Scott Card "Speaker for the Dead"

Elves are plants, not animals.

First life
they are mobile humanoids (The pointy eared tree huggers you'd expect)
When they die, their body, which is actually a mobile seed form, attempts to root and become a tree.

Second Life
As sentient, but immobile trees, they can communicate telepathically by touch.
Mobile first life elves tend them, they send out roots and branches to touch other 2nd life trees to form a vast interconnected network/community.

The interconnected network of 2nd life elves form the "Enchanted forest" type setting the elves live in.

Reproduction is done between a mobile form and a tree form.

So. . .as first lifers, generally the form a PC would choose, they are curious and adventurous, they explore and live life to the hilt. . .they have no fear of death at all in first life. . .mostly they fear dying too far away from the forest, where they'll be stuck alone without anyone to talk to, tend them, or reproduce with when in 2nd life. Elves end up being less concerned with dying, and more concerned with being sure someone collects the bodies of the dead to be moved to a proper planting location . . .2nd life elves, as essentially immortal trees, end up with the long-perspective, risk averse personas normally associated with elves.

[Nejira]

Thats not a bad idea LM! That deserves an idea point

I shall promptly proceed to stealing it

[Aotrs Commander]

Absolutely detest Vampires.  Who can love a monster that feeds on humanity to survive?

And all you "but I can drink animal blood" types, stop fooling yourself.  No vampire would WANT animal blood.  They are VAMPIRES you idiots.

lynn

You are a wise sage, good sir. I shall refrain from going off ata tangent at ranting about how we Liches are infinately superior to Vampires because this is the Rolemaster boards so I know everyone here must be smart enough to know that already...



Me, I like immortal Elves. They scream so much more satifiyingly when you gut the-

Erm, I mean, I am a blatent Tolkien fan, so I always in any game system have the immortal Elves. That said, my campaign world have a nasty tendancy to be based on a realistic time scale (lacking most game and fictional fantasy worlds "and then a thousand years passed an nothing happened" - even Tolkien was guility of this). So they don't have to be tens of thousands of years old. And I get the Tolkien feel of "Elves are better than you" by having more of the veterans of the previous wars surviving meaning "Elves are better" by the simple expediant of being higher level than you... (PCs aside!)

That and the fact I get round Elf-rule with low birth rates (volentary pregnacy coupled with less or a desire to procreate except recreationally) and more emphasis on the death-by-violence (i.e. bad guys). And of course the older the Elf, the more 'alien-y' and mysterious (and Tolkien-sque) said Elf will get.

So I guess they are more plot-point NPC than PC for me. Because no game I run, unless composed exclusively of Elves and Dragons or something, would last in-game chronologically long enough for immortality to make a difference.

And if a player asks, "Can I play a 1000-year old level 1 Elf" I smack them over the head with a rocket launcher. Seventy-four times.

[Nejira]

And if a player asks, "Can I play a 1000-year old level 1 Elf" I smack them over the head with a rocket launcher. Seventy-four times.

Maybe he was a late bloomer

[markc]

 An old GM I had a great idea IMO when a player wanted to create an old elf. He had the elf enter a stasis for a long time during which he forgot somethings and some of what he knew was now useless. I think the time in stasis was 10,000 years or so and the player had no idea at the time that that was what the GM was going to do. The GM just asked the player to skip the first game and arive for the second when they got him out of stasis. He was a little shocked to say the least.

MDC

Oh BTW, go elves.

[yammahoper]

Seventy-four times.

Just like a Lich to be thorough.  Gotta love that 

I know I would most certainly rather be a Lich than a stinkin, whiney, limp wristed Vampire.  What respectable Lich wouldn't know an "Orb of Daylight" spell?

lynn

[dutch206]

Suddenly, I get the distinct feeling that this thread has become an outpost of "Now I am Sage". 

[yammahoper]

I do not read or look at the Now I am Sage, so I missed the joke 

lynn