Topic: XP - a player in your campaign wants their character to get XP for picking locks

[Druss_the_Legend]

XP - a player in your campaign wants their character to get XP for picking locks

what is your reply?

I use milestone XP.

[Jengada]

I don't know about milestone XP, but the standard XP rules give points for maneuvers. Picking a lock is a maneuver. For a non-combat, non-spell user, this can be a big part of their XP, so I've always used it when I was doing detailed XP.
(I quit on that a while ago, my players strongly prefer the whole group leveling up. I gauge it roughly, and they're happy with it. I don't start considering giving them a level until one of them starts asking, then I wait for the next milestone. Maybe that's what you mean by mileston xp.)

[katastrophe]

We long ago decided that awarding XP on a per person per action per kill basis was a terrible way of doing xp for adventurers. We figure the xp for the adventure and make a general award to the PCs. Less work for players and GMs.

Remember, simple is always better.

[Druss_the_Legend]

We long ago decided that awarding XP on a per person per action per kill basis was a terrible way of doing xp for adventurers. We figure the xp for the adventure and make a general award to the PCs. Less work for players and GMs.

Remember, simple is always better.

Agree. Love that mantra. Wish this player would use it.

[Druss_the_Legend]

I don't know about milestone XP, but the standard XP rules give points for maneuvers. Picking a lock is a maneuver. For a non-combat, non-spell user, this can be a big part of their XP, so I've always used it when I was doing detailed XP.
(I quit on that a while ago, my players strongly prefer the whole group leveling up. I gauge it roughly, and they're happy with it. I don't start considering giving them a level until one of them starts asking, then I wait for the next milestone. Maybe that's what you mean by mileston xp.)

milestone xp is in a clump at the coclusion of a quest or significant enounter and its give evenly to everyone. So for example you might gove each character 2800XP to cover the battle, the kills, the crits, the spells, the rescue of an NPC and all the skills each character used to get the common goal achieved.
The frequency of milesone XP will vary for each campaign. As GM you have the ability and responsibility to control the soeed at which PCs level up.
My playgroup has just completed one major quest and are bout hald way through another one and have justed eraned 3000XP each. I also top this up with individual bonus XP boosts of 200-500XP for the one offf side quests of tasks that individual charcaters complete but these are usuallyfor stuff like a special challenge to write a poem or give a speech or solve an especially difficult riddle or trap but generally skills on theor own do not generate XP. its my job to include stuff in the campaign, so over a course of 10-12 sessions that gives all characters equal opportunity and includes and engages them.

[5th Knight of Xar]

Per action per kill basis, per maneuvers is the way we've done it for decades, works wonders. Some situations call for shared xp for kills and actions and completed tasks, which is only fair.

[MisterK]

Sorry, I can't help you - I don't use XPs.

At the beginning of each campaign I GM, I tell the players what the starting level is and what the end level likely will be. Then we play, and they gain a level at fairly regular intervals story-wise.

The core thing is, my players don't need levels to be engaged. I mean, I GMed a campaign for more than five years during which the characters stayed at the level they were at the start. The players were warned: this campaign will start at level 20 and also end at level 20.

If what I propose is not interesting, no amount of candy will make my players stay. On the other hand, if what I propose is interesting, they don't need candy. So I don't use level increase to sugar-coat the campaign events, I use it to reflect increased understanding of what happens behind the scene and how the world really works.

It also helps that the characters usually have very little free time once the campaign starts - so little time to actually train.

[PiXeL01]

We have always used session experience. We started with individual experience with big rewards for outstanding RP, but as the level of acting skill was too divided we just vent with party based session ended xp.
If they complete milestones they get more experience of course.

I’d only award extra experience if the person was clearly doing something which would only benefit him and then only rarely. The reason for this is that I see RPGs as a party versus the world or plot

[katastrophe]

Per action per kill basis, per maneuvers is the way we've done it for decades, works wonders. Some situations call for shared xp for kills and actions and completed tasks, which is only fair.

Still doesn't make it a sensible way of awarding XP. People used to use leaches to treat illness for centuries, until they figured out smarter ways of treating people. Just because it was done a certain way is not an excuse to keep doing it.

[5th Knight of Xar]

Per action per kill basis, per maneuvers is the way we've done it for decades, works wonders. Some situations call for shared xp for kills and actions and completed tasks, which is only fair.

Still doesn't make it a sensible way of awarding XP. People used to use leaches to treat illness for centuries, until they figured out smarter ways of treating people. Just because it was done a certain way is not an excuse to keep doing it.

No need to make this discussion silly, this is purely about using an established and welcome system for rewarding players during the quests and campaigns.

[Cory Magel]

It's an easy choice, possibly just a difficult discussion.  Do you want to give out individual exp?

When we use milestone or session exp there are times when someone would give/get an individual bonus, but it needed to be something meaningful.  So if picking the lock achieved something meaningful, maybe give some individual exp.  But if it's just picking the lock on a random chest/door, I wouldn't bother.

If I were in your shoes my first attempt would be to explain that individual exp rarely makes the difference between them leveling before others and not having to track it saves everyone time, which allows you more active game-play.

[katastrophe]

Per action per kill basis, per maneuvers is the way we've done it for decades, works wonders. Some situations call for shared xp for kills and actions and completed tasks, which is only fair.

Still doesn't make it a sensible way of awarding XP. People used to use leaches to treat illness for centuries, until they figured out smarter ways of treating people. Just because it was done a certain way is not an excuse to keep doing it.

No need to make this discussion silly, this is purely about using an established and welcome system for rewarding players during the quests and campaigns.

established yes. Welcome, I have my doubts. Maybe for some purists, maybe. But I can say with honesty no one that I have played with has looked at that system after initially finding it cumbersome and said "I love doing this form of xp" and in every instance they have scrapped that system and went to group/milestone/adventure xp.

[jdale]

I also don't use XP this way, but saying so doesn't help the original poster who had a specific question.

If you are awarding XP for maneuvers, then lock picking is a maneuver. It would be sensible to restrict XP award for maneuvers to those that actually advanced the game or were significant in some way, to keep from bogging things down any more. If you don't award XP for maneuvers, then I don't know what the logic would be for making lock picking special.

[5th Knight of Xar]

It could go either way, the player might not like the idea of a constructed milestone EXP system and drop out of the group eventually, or he'll find it enjoyable. I'd suggest discussing with him.

From past decades of roleplaying both Merp/Rolemaster, I can say that the players I've been a GM for, and myself as a player have enjoyed receiving EXP as Rolemaster has originally set up to do. We've never used the idea of a milestone EXP arrangement. EXP awarded for individual tasks, kills and more, EXP for group tasks completed or shared EXP for team kills as a few examples. Then again we've never had any stress related to our gaming sessions, so we have always handled the 10-15 minutes the GM had to spend to sum up the EXP for all players at the end of an evening or weekend.

[Druss_the_Legend]

It could go either way, the player might not like the idea of a constructed milestone EXP system and drop out of the group eventually, or he'll find it enjoyable. I'd suggest discussing with him.

From past decades of roleplaying both Merp/Rolemaster, I can say that the players I've been a GM for, and myself as a player have enjoyed receiving EXP as Rolemaster has originally set up to do. We've never used the idea of a milestone EXP arrangement. EXP awarded for individual tasks, kills and more, EXP for group tasks completed or shared EXP for team kills as a few examples. Then again we've never had any stress related to our gaming sessions, so we have always handled the 10-15 minutes the GM had to spend to sum up the EXP for all players at the end of an evening or weekend.

no danger of player dropping out of the game. was merely a discussion around what deserves XP.
im all for less admin my end so we can get to the roleplaying. he actually roleplays the lock picking which is cool. im ok with that. i dont give xp for manuevers or spells or individial kills. ist more a load of xp at the end of the quest but i let my players put fwd suggestions for any XP worthy awards i might have missed. the lock picking he has done thus far has been useful to the party fpr sure but all just decided on dice rolls but i see his point, im just not wanting to open a can of worms for individual skills or spells etc.
having said that i might award an XP bonus here and there for him cracking open an extremely difficul lock and there are a few of these further along in the dungeon so id even say 'hey this lock gets you XP if you open it as its a new lock u hvent seen b4 and really complicated to open, i might give him an opportunity to ask a few questions and make a big deal about how complex the lock looks. prob a good house rule right there. New locks get XO the first time you pick them. makes sense.

[Spectre771]

Successful or not, it's a learning experience for the PC.  At low levels, there is bonus experience for first time <everything>.  Then depending on the difficulty of the lock, more or less experience.  If the PC has picked a dozen or so simple locks, then probably no experience at all as it's "routine" by that point.

[Druss_the_Legend]

Successful or not, it's a learning experience for the PC.  At low levels, there is bonus experience for first time <everything>.  Then depending on the difficulty of the lock, more or less experience.  If the PC has picked a dozen or so simple locks, then probably no experience at all as it's "routine" by that point.

^^^This.
am giving XP for new locks picked and allowing some easier ones to be automatic

[GrumpyOldFart]

Another thing you may or may not consider is the significance of the act.

If he's picking the lock on his own strongbox just for practice, that has a lot less life impact than picking the lock on the King's strongroom in hopes of stealing the information that will free his worst enemy's eldest daughter from prison. That act has more life impact whether he succeeds or fails, quite aside from the fact that the lock is probably very unlike anything he's ever encountered before.

Context matters.... and the other things you had to do solely because of that context can likewise generate XP.

[Jengada]

To sum up, there seem to be 4 main approaches to XP.
1 - Per action (some variant of the standard rules)
2 - Session based
3 - Milestone based
4 - DM judgement
Different people/groups/DMs prefer different methods, and there are reasons for each. As with so much else, what really matters is that the whole group knows and is OK with whatever the approach is. If that's so, then no method is silly, pointless, or whatever. Personally, while I like per-action (and yes, I actually enjoy doing the calculations - I like doing my own taxes by hand, too.) my players prefer more milestone-based. I actually give Development Points based on engagement and character play, rather than leveling at different times.

Druss_the_legend describes a sort of hybrid of the Milestone+action system he uses. So he asked for thoughts on whether picking locks should be rewarded. It sounds like that would fit in the examples of actions that could be rewarded with XP. You could also consider the consequences of NOT rewarding XP for that, in terms of player engagement and motivation. But that's a player personality question none of us can answer.

[Druss_the_Legend]

To sum up, there seem to be 4 main approaches to XP.
1 - Per action (some variant of the standard rules)
2 - Session based
3 - Milestone based
4 - DM judgement
Different people/groups/DMs prefer different methods, and there are reasons for each. As with so much else, what really matters is that the whole group knows and is OK with whatever the approach is. If that's so, then no method is silly, pointless, or whatever. Personally, while I like per-action (and yes, I actually enjoy doing the calculations - I like doing my own taxes by hand, too.) my players prefer more milestone-based. I actually give Development Points based on engagement and character play, rather than leveling at different times.

Druss_the_legend describes a sort of hybrid of the Milestone+action system he uses. So he asked for thoughts on whether picking locks should be rewarded. It sounds like that would fit in the examples of actions that could be rewarded with XP. You could also consider the consequences of NOT rewarding XP for that, in terms of player engagement and motivation. But that's a player personality question none of us can answer.

Thanks Jegada. Sums up xp options well.
I had a change of heart about xp for lock picking. the player in question now gets milestone xp for general lock picking throughout a season (10x 4hr sessions) and can get bonus XP on top of this for particularly difficult locks. Ove time his milestone xp for lockipicking might be zero as the adventuring we do can vary a fair bit but ill do my best to include a few tricky locks here and there to keep him engaged.