Topic: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"

[chalicier]

I'm a games programmer, working for a small company in the UK. Our next big project is an MMO..

... But it's not Rolemaster.

The real issue with all of this is not how the game would work, or whether it'd be a "felleny". For starters, only businesses at present have the necessary resources to produce MMORPGs, and they won't normally just steal an easily identifiable property unless they're damn sure they'll get away with it. No, the issue is where the money would come from.

It wouldn't be ICE - they've no real reason to want to, and the expense can be crippling. (I could make an estimate of how much it would cost to make a really good RM MMO if people want.) Publishers aren't going to want to fund an MMO based upon a (from their perspective) little-known games line, particularly when they discover that it's comparatively complex and aimed at intelligent adults. Development houses are generally dangerously close to the edge anyway. So who's going to pay for it?
This is why you only see poorly-thought-out grind clones, and this is why it's always the big names and the big properties - D&D, Star Wars, et al.

All that said though, it would be an excellent basis for an online game (not least with the huge number of different options available and the numerical heavy lifting all handled behind-the-scenes). I'd personally absolutely love to work on it. But the way I see it, it's never going to happen unless there's a director at a games publisher somewhere who's a secret Rolemaster fan.

Does anyone from ICE post here? If so, what would ICE's likely response to an offer to create a RM-based MMO (or classic CRPG) be? (Assuming they had someone else's funding.)

[Cory Magel]

I believe ICE is in talks with a game maker with the intent of licencing RM to them in order to base the foundation of the games system after it. We have no idea who those talks are progressing or if they are still ongoing at this point.

If successful I suspect it will give ICE a serious shot in the arm.

[vroomfogle]

If successful I suspect it will give ICE a serious shot in the arm.

This is an awfully big IF though.   The vast majority of MMO's don't even make it to release.  Of those that do, the majority of them don't make it.   It's like trying to become a rock star.  In addition the process of making an MMO takes years.

It's definitely worth ICE pursuing, but I think it's a big gamble.

[KaBurr]

I believe Dark Age of Camelot was based upon Rolemaster but ICE went bankrupt during the development so lots of last minute changes happened to prevent copyright infringments.  This would possibly be the second game based on RM if you count that.

[Cory Magel]

I would think, unless I'm totally wrong here, that ICE would get some upfront money for the licence upon agreement and even if the game was a flop would still get something... but I'm no contract/licencing lawyer.

[pastaav]

I believe Dark Age of Camelot was based upon Rolemaster but ICE went bankrupt during the development so lots of last minute changes happened to prevent copyright infringments.  This would possibly be the second game based on RM if you count that.

Just for information the reason old ICE finally had to close down was that scheduled license money from the Dark Age of Camelot developers did not arrive. Why they did it, is not known but it had been suggested that Tolkien Enterprise and the developers saw mutual benefits if Ironcrown ceased to exist.

[Turambar]

That is the first time I've heard a connection to DAoC in ICE's demise. The most frequent 'final nail' I've heard is that TE took (unethical?) action that led to ICE's bank(s) freezing thier accounts...so even though they did have funds to pay the bills, they couldn't access those funds.

Jason

btw- I did a quick search for information concerning DAoC and Rolemaster's relationship...and came of with the following quote from gamasutra.com:

"The initial versions of Dark Age of Camelot used the rights for a tabletop role-playing game called Rolemaster as a basis for the class and spell systems. Not long into the project, the company that created Rolemaster, Iron Crown Enterprises, filed for bankruptcy, and we lost the rights. This turned out to be good for us, however, because we were no longer required to adhere to a set of rules based on the license - although we did have to scramble for about a week to rename and retune spells and classes and otherwise clear Rolemaster content out of the game."

[pastaav]

If I recall correctly I heard it on the Rolemaster list when it happened. TE was the prime player, but the scheme from TE would have failed if the license money had arrived on time. I don't think there is much use in guesing what really happened, old ICE is long gone. Yet my guess is that DAoC is probably a very a minor things in ICE's desmise. Much more important is that TE forbid ICE to sell the MERP stock or to destroy it. Looking at the success of Jacksons LOTR it seems TE probably made a fortune by forcing ICE to shut down...anyway this is very off topic to discussing about Rolemaster as a MMORPG so we better drop the issue.

[Guillaume]

If I recall correctly I heard it on the Rolemaster list when it happened. TE was the prime player, but the scheme from TE would have failed if the license money had arrived on time. I don't think there is much use in guesing what really happened, old ICE is long gone. Yet my guess is that DAoC is probably a very a minor things in ICE's desmise. Much more important is that TE forbid ICE to sell the MERP stock or to destroy it. Looking at the success of Jacksons LOTR it seems TE probably made a fortune by forcing ICE to shut down...anyway this is very off topic to discussing about Rolemaster as a MMORPG so we better drop the issue.

IIRC there was something about an order from Justice to lock a bank account before the money from DAoC could be put in. I think DAoC developpers were, collateral damages of the feud between TE and ICE. And it took them more than a week to purge the game of most the RM references ( they didn't manage to remove all the references )...

As for RM &nd MMORPG, the tough thing is going the economy balancing. DDO is a nice adaptation of D&D, but it has several real problems with the economy.

[chalicier]

Well, the latest Newsletter has certainly made things clearer as regards this thread.

So, on the one hand, WOOOOO! A Rolemaster based MMORPG!
On the other handm BOOOOOO! I'm not working on it 

I was looking at a really excellent MMO engine earlier and thinking "damn this would be great for RM", so here's hoping it comes out well. I'll certainly be up for the beta when(if) it arrives.

[Marc R]

ugh, I have this strange feeling I have to go dig in my spam for a new newsletter.

[magritte@shaw.ca]

Well, this is good news.  I haven't played Rolemaster (or any other P&P RPG's) regularly in over fifteen years, but I always thought Rolemaster would be a terrific basis for a CRPG.  I always felt Rolemaster's biggest drawback was the amount of bookkeeping required in combat--keeping track of which players were stunned, which were bleeding and how many HP's per round they were losing, etc.  It really wasn't practical to pit 7 characters against 20 orcs.  But for a computer, that kind of thing is no problem.

I suppose Rolemaster doesn't have the marketing cachet of D&D, but I find that rather sad.  I remember being baffled by the praise lumped onto Baldur's Gate when it came out and it seemed for a lot of people, the fact that it used D&D rules and was set in the Forgotten Realms was a big selling point.  Although I played D&D intensely (more than any other RPG), I don't have any particular attachment to the rules.  The 1st & 2nd edition rules allowed very limited customizing of characters; a seventh level fighter was pretty much a seventh level fighter.  I much prefer the approach of character classes giving a direction to the character, but not limiting them to such an extreme degree--like in the Might & Magic series and Rolemaster.  D&D finally moved in that direction in the 3rd edition.  As to the Forgotten Realms, I never read the books or played D&D in that setting, and it seems a pretty generic fantasy setting to me.  Don't get me wrong:  some good D&D-based computer games have been made--Planescape: Torment was outstanding and Baldur's Gate II hugely better than the original--but I felt BG 1 was wildly overrated.

It would be better news to me still if it were a Neverwinter Nights style game with a DM-client and player-made content, but it's nice to see Rolemaster making an impact.  It might even persuade me to try an MMORPG, though what I've read about them makes them sound kind of boring to me.

[Marc R]

Welcome to the forums.

Yeah, MMORPGs seem to be either hack-n-slash fests, or variants of checkpoint questing. (i.e. get quest from A, go to point B, perform task C, return to A for reward.)

If someone can really get the RP in there actually working, it'd be great, but a fantasy/superhero/sci fi setting and a character sheet doesn't make something roleplaying, I'm sure all of us have done RPG as a thin thread of plot connecting combats at one time or another.

At best, the MMORPGs recall RP of my early youth, and certainly dungeon crawling with a computer handling the mechanics is fun, but it's not really roleplay. . .

Then again, "massive". . . .anyone here really think they could do an open call for a roleplaying game and expect all the people who show up to actually want or be interested in roleplaying, or will you have a mixed bag of psychos, combat monsters, cardboard cameos and some roleplayers. . . .I dunno if an "open field" and "massive" environment will ever really produce roleplay. All of the best gaming groups for actual roleplay I've been in have been selective about letting people join. 

If someone ever can, it'll be amazing, RPG without dealing at all with the mechanics would be sweet, but it seems like a pipe dream. . . You'd seem to either need AI, or GMs in the background playing the NPCs, and some sort of mechanic to rienforce staying in character.

Then again, "Roleplay points" would almost seem to be self defeating. (A mechanic for roleplay?)

[Vince]

ugh, I have this strange feeling I have to go dig in my spam for a new newsletter.

So do I... 

[magritte@shaw.ca]

Lord Miller, have you tried any of the Neverwinter Nights "Persistent Worlds"?  Some of them claim to be for hard-core roleplaying.  They're not massive and can control their membership, so it could be true.

[shnar]

I know this is an old thread, but I vaguely recall that Dark Ages of Camelot was originally going to use license Rolemaster as their system, until ICE got into money problems with Tolkien Enterprises. Would have been interesting to see such a detailed Critical system in a computer game (I hate these "Critical Success!" messages when it just does double damage. I love the detailed arm-breaking, leg-spraining crits of RM).

As for MMORPs in general, I could go for hours about how shallow they are, and did write an essay once about ROLE-playing vs. ROLL-playing (actually taking on the role of a character, vs. just rolling the dice to kill things for the all mighty Experience Point). The biggest problem is that it's very difficult to go deep when you're trying to hit a wide audience. I've always thought that a good solution would be to somehow include Player Generated content. Allow the players to craft their own quests and rewards, that way they could give more reward if you actually Roleplayed, instead of just doing xyz-action to complete the quest. MUSHes often times had something like this, a +refer type system, kind of like Kudo points (since MUSHes rarely had stats/levels).

-shnar

[Certyl]

I never played UO but I heard it was a fantastic game.  I wish I had at least tried it.

I started playing UO jan 98, and am still playing it. Best game ever, with 10 year aniversary comming up soon.
The game is still up and running so you can try it out anytime (free 14 day trials I believe), but be warned it's a fairly complex game to get into at the start. If you start up on Catskills server, me and my guild actively help new players get their bearings, so look us up (I'm the GM of the GRI guild).

They released a new graphics engine last month, wich I personaly don't like but that might be due to me being used to the old look. But anyone used to the other mayor MMO's might feel more comfortable with it.

For free download go to http://www.uo.com/demo.html
Feel free to PM me with any and all UO questions, I'll stop hijacking this thread.
/end UO plug

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Here is the point of view of someone working in the MMo industry : me.

1) RM is a great PnP game. Great PnP games can be tranformed into great video games BUT you have to build the games around the PnP rules and not force them into a game. Huge difference.

2) considering 1) and observing nearly all the MMORPG are hack'n'Slash feists or, like said earlier, quest checkpoints, you have to realize that RM cant be turned into a MMORPG like any we have seen before. Indeed, What makes RM special is that you don't have to cleave a gazillions goblins, goblin chiefs, plagued goblin chiefs, dark plagued goblin chiefs, shadowdark plagued goblin chiefs and so on and so on... to gain experience. You progress through interacting with other players and npcs, and the world itself. Combat is one interaction but there are many, many others.

3) This is implying that in order to build a MMORPG based on RM, you have to provoke a paradigm shift in the MMORPG world. A hard task.
I have a clear view of what i'd do in order to make this happen. I may be wrong though. And i would never say anything about it in a public forum. I'd rather have a meeting with my new boss and give him a sixty pages document. With a lot of drawings and schematics.

PS : would the customers follow ? granted how hard it is for original games to survive in front of dinosaurs like everquest, WoW or Lineage... i'd say they are not ready, except if the result is such a kick ass game that it would metaphorically hand the customer his ass on a silver plate.

[windmarkbob]

Wasn't Gemstone, a text based online game, initially based HEAVILY on a Rolemaster type of engine?

If it could be done then and there, why can't it be done here and now?

[lizzrdus]

The first MMORPG that added the option of being a crafting type character, is Horizons.  Players get to go into the ruins of towns and villages and rebuild them.  You get to rebuild bridges, roads ect.  Of course, some need to stay in the locations being worked on by others to protect them from invading undead and other foul beasties....
Check it out, you may like it...
Now if only I can remember what i did with my Horizons cds....