Topic: Multiple Instances of Pain spells stack?

[Cory Magel]

I'm thinking a Blue Whale maybe? 

[Tommi]

If we think about history of these pain spells and Spell Law  we see (IMO of course) how it became what it is (quite pointless). Pain is clearly made for AD&D players where hits are more important.  In AD&D 2nd ed? (IIRC lastly from baldurs gate) Harm is 6th or 7th level spell. Even Harm leaves target with 1d4 hits? Tornment is 14th level spell that inflicts 90% of remaining hits. 14th level is a bit below 6th level AD&D spells (Harm) but is also is a bit milder - it has duration and causes 90% reduction from remaining hits. There we have benchmark for pain spells...

What pain spells do we have:
 Evil mage: I see pain -20%, fire nerves -40%, agony -60%, tornment -90%  and effects that must be healed (reason must be stated when cast) ache -10%, pang -20%, spasm -40%
 Sorcerers and mentalism versions: minor pain -25%, major  pain -50%

Evil mages spells (in physical erosion lists) are  different versions of the theme  - not same spells like pain 1 , pain 2 etc. - thus multiple castings should work. These have clearly named differently so that at least those can be cast cumulatively.
Sorcerers pains are in mind destruction thus more related to mentalist spells - magically inflicted nerve pain what ever. As Sorcs and mentalist pain spells are all named  xyz pain  that rule against multiple casting of same spell should be considered.
 
Another thing that should be considered: these spells don't reduce hits below zero (seems purposeful to me) - if target has zero remaining hits  you reduce zero hits.

I rarely see these spells used by players (excluding interrogation) - at 7th level (sorc major pain) sorcerer can cast so much better offensive spells. Spells that either take opponent of the melee (panic, demonic possession?) or inflict crits or cause severe wounds (break limb 5th level) . Same with mentalist.

How I use these in my games:
As dying from hits is possible I do allow these spells participate up to max hits -  however co hits must be made otherwise and dying including soul departure has to happen while pain effect is on. I also allow multiple casting of Sorceres and mentalists spell. Allowing multiple casting will not affect game balance and if someone likes to blow his/hers/its PP's away they are allowed to do it. 

As pain-spells are at least partially AD&D spells those could/should be modified to suit RM better. At least E Mages Physical Erosion list should get something more  useful spells instead of these. 
Yammas ruling is one quite good and interesting solution.

[markc]

  Minor and Major Pain are also on the RMSS Mentalist base list at ranks 3 and 9, which is where my players ask the most questions as the sorcerers have evil deity/demon/devil channeling requirements in most of my games. All that un-ing things/people/objects/etc can really mess with your mind. 


 I also find Yammhoppers ruling interesting with the note that in RMSS/FRP you do not have max hits for races and specific options from talents can increase your hits a lot.
MDC

[yammahoper]

I calculate base hits in RMSS by adding body dev progression.  0-6-5-2-1 is a base hits of 140.

Talents that increase hits per rank are not calculated into the Pain effect as these talents represent exceptional ability to ignore pain.  One rule affects another and complete, clear descriptions are required as part of the base rules.  A talent section or book needs an entire section explaining how they integrate into the game.

I have played RM a long time and have experimented with lots of optional rules.  They ain't for everybody.  One example I tried for a long time after RMSS came out was to limit rank development to 60.  Ev makes that 120 and Occ makes that 180.  Obviously, restricted makes it 30 ranks max.  My desire was to create a measurable skill range with a known cap.  Additional examples include humanoid maximum stat of 110, planar/magical beings of 120 and dragons/god like beings of 150.

Pain isn't the only spell needing some help either.  I can accept my changes might not be the best mechanics but by gum I cannot accept not seeing how broken the spell is.

Tommi, I think your observations about ADnD are right on.  RM was originally designed to be used with other systems and ADnD was (and remains) top dog.  As we know, every version of DnD  has combat that requires wearing a foe down.  Blasting away 25% to 50% of hits in one spell is similar to a fireball attack with the advantage of not nuking your fighters. 

Still, Pain 50% still generally requires three successful attacks to drop high HP foes, even more if they have talents enhancing hits (by my rules).  Its most effective use is when combined with roleplaying.  It is a great way to make a creature run or an intelligent foe to surrender/retreat/flee.  Meta gaming aside, mlostvictims of the spell only know OH MY GAWDS THAT HURT HOW WILL I SURVIVE ANOTHER BOUGHT OF SUCH WRACKING HORRIBLE PAIN?!  Certainly, Spell Lore and level of intelligence has varied impact on such situations.

[markc]

  I have use then Pain type spells in role-playing (RP) to make PC's and NPC's to think twice about what they are doing at the time and think about retreating to get help. Just like Yammahoper describes above, and it can be a huge eye opener when someone takes 100 hits from a failed RR or even more if it is spell mastered or you use the exceptional skill/casting roll table and get a bonus to the % of hits the target is to lose.
  I myself have found in a game that it can be a huge help on some creatures as it allows for weapon attacks to be more effective, ie 200 hit creature might take 10 20 hit attacks to take down but only 5 20 hits attacks and 1 Major Pain (if it fails its RR).


 Some have also asked about why it does not have a duration? Or should the phantom hit loss heal faster then normal hit loss? Any thoughts on the duration or faster healing comments?
MDC     

[yammahoper]

Pain is a mental attack.  The damage is real, delivered via the mind (and thus truly mindless creatures are immune to it), but a meta mechanic could state that an unconscious mind is unable to cause further damage, so once knocked out by the spell additional attacks would have no effect.

I have no problem with Pain spells being able to kill.  Maybe it is best if they cannot.  I like the idea of an over zealous sorcerer or mentalist pushing a victims mind just a little to far and killing the poor creature.  The mechanics of the spell can be as sophisticated as we desire, within reason of course.  I define reason as not so complex as to reduce playability/fun factor, of course.

[jdale]

If we think about history of these pain spells and Spell Law  we see (IMO of course) how it became what it is (quite pointless). Pain is clearly made for AD&D players where hits are more important.

We do see opponents drop purely due to hit damage some of the time. As written, Pain is not a spell you can stick with for the entire battle, but it's quite a good spell to start off with. 50% of target's hits obviously helps with accumulating hit damage and also sticks them with a -20 activity penalty. Tactically, you want to cast it early and then switch to something else. That's more interesting than having one go-to spell that you cast to the exclusion of any other.

[Warl]

I seek consistentcy.  Pain as listed is inconsistent.

I still wanna know how you get a creature with 100,000 hits.  That is some serious body dev.

We will have to disagree on the consistency part.

LOl and your the one who first mentioned a 100,000 hits creature.. you tell me how you got the creature to have it :-P

Posted by: markc Unless the RM2 description is less clear than the RMSS one

But the spell description is very clear in RM2

[Warl]

The only Change I have contemplated (Not used since I have only used the professions as NPCs and do not allow players to play "Evil" in my games) is to give the results Stun rounds in addition to hits delivered.

I would give 1 round of stun per 10% of hits delivered by the spell, with a No parry result if the target fails the RR by 25 or more.

Otherwise I stick to the "Remaining" hits rule and do not allow it to directly kill.

[Cory Magel]

I can accept my changes might not be the best mechanics but by gum I cannot accept not seeing how broken the spell is.

But you've made it quite a bit MORE powerful. 

[yammahoper]

I can accept my changes might not be the best mechanics but by gum I cannot accept not seeing how broken the spell is.

But you've made it quite a bit MORE powerful. 

Yes I have 

I do tend to run higher level campaigns.  Your Holy Attacks list gets abused used heavily.

[Tommi]

I would give 1 round of stun per 10% of hits delivered by the spell, with a No parry result if the target fails the RR by 25 or more.

Otherwise I stick to the "Remaining" hits rule and do not allow it to directly kill.

This is another version worth trying.

As written pain is spell that I see use only in three cases: there is an item that allows casting it, by GM  creating mood and by adventure designers for magical tarps (signs, runes).

[Cory Magel]

I do tend to run higher level campaigns.  Your Holy Attacks list gets abused used heavily.

I love those. I had fun writing them. But it also taught me what a PITA critical hit tables are to write.

[markc]

Warl,
 One of the first times I had this brought up was with a group of RM2 players around 98 or so and we looked into both of the rules descriptions, ie RM2 and RMSS.
MDC

[Warl]

  I myself have found in a game that it can be a huge help on some creatures as it allows for weapon attacks to be more effective, ie 200 hit creature might take 10 20 hit attacks to take down but only 5 20 hits attacks and 1 Major Pain (if it fails its RR).


 Some have also asked about why it does not have a duration? Or should the phantom hit loss heal faster then normal hit loss? Any thoughts on the duration or faster healing comments?
MDC   

I agree with the "huge" help aspect.

As for the latter part there... here is an exact quote of the Pain spell from Rm2.

From Spell law
1-Pain (F) D: 1min/Lvl R: 100'
Target feels pain and takes 20% of his remaining hits.

Now the only real question here is what does the duration apply to.
If it is speaking of the "Pain" aspect and not the hits delivered, then there is nothing in the description to help a Gm adjudicate what "pain" represents.... as the is no penalty to actions, no stun, nothing that gives the player and Gm information on how it affects the character.

However if it applies to the Hits delivered, which is the way I run it when I use it, and it would seem to me that the duration would apply to all effects unless otherwise stated, then the Hits delivered would be regained at the end of the duration. In other words, the hits represent the pain as a reduction in the characters ability to withstand more pain and damage from injury for a temporary period.

[Peter R]

I agree with and use Markc's duration interpretation. At the end of the duration the hits are returned to the 'victim',

[jdale]

In RMSS, the Sorcerer spell on Mind Destruction has a duration of 10 min/5 fail, but the Mentalist versions have a duration of --. I hadn't noticed the difference previously.

If the spell has a duration, it is an active spell, and I agree the hits should be returned at the end of the duration. The version with no duration is permanent (until healed of course). Still, seems like an oversight that there is a difference.

[markc]

 In past discussions we had determined/considered that the Mentalist version was more powerful on purpose to separate the various professions and realms. We also had some thoughts that the difference might be a way to limit some of the Soc professions over all power.
MDC

[yammahoper]

So here is a question for the assembly.

Spell Mastery.  I have seen it used to multiply hits delivered by x2, x3, x4 and even x5 (by a PC, accumulative -20 per multiple).  I personally require -30 since multiplying hits strikes me as similar to +1 target.  Anyway, should Spell Mastery be able to increase the % of hits lost?  -20% could become -40%(-30), -60%(-60), -80%(-90), -100%(-120), etc.  Imagine -50% becoming -100%(-30), -150%(-60), -200%(-90), etc.

Two ranks per level in Spell Mastery seems unlikely unless the skill is EV (via a talent perhaps).  But it is possible, so, at two ranks a level, at level 15 our Sorcerer/Mentalist could have 30 ranks (+95).  With exceptional stats and such (+40), resulting in a skill of 135.  At -90, our spell user better roll well, but at -60, an average roll will result in success.

At one rank per level, it takes till level 30 to reach this skill level, all other considerations (bonus items, talents, etc) aside.

 

[markc]

 I do allow spell mastery to mod the % hits taken but I do not remember the mods off the top of my head.
MDC