Author Topic: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?  (Read 3890 times)

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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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What rules do GM's use for player characters using two weapons in combat??

I have used Two Weapon Combination skill before but I am talking about someone who is skilled with say a shortsword who wants to attack with TWO shortswords but has only developed the skill with ONE shortsword.

Up until now I have used a -20 to hit modifier but i feel that this is too low and does not reflect the difficulty involved with using two weapons at the same time.

Related to my first question is parrying. It should be possible for someone to use a second weapon as a shield (instead of attacking right?). How do you deal wit this.

Offline Warl

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2015, 06:44:30 PM »
this depends on which system your using.
In Rm2 you have the penalty for off hand, which is -20, but then there is the non-profiecient penalty of -25 which could also be applied in this case, making the off hand -45. I would apply this to both weapons (the -25) since he has no skill with attacking with two weapons it hinders his primary skilla s well since he is trying to work something into the routine he has not trained.. so the penalties would be:
-25 primary hand
-45 secondary hand.



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Offline jdale

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2015, 07:25:35 PM »
The RMSS answer is that, to attack with two weapons, you would use your bonus in the appropriate Two Weapon Fighting skill as your OB (in place of your weapon skill). Don't have the skill? Those attacks won't be very effective, then, now will they?

You can use a weapon in your off-hand as a shield -- it gets no attack in that case, but gives you +5 DB. Not much of a bonus, but better than nothing.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2015, 09:27:11 PM »
Regardless of modifiers, any parry is subtracted from all attacks.  If off hand weapon is used as shield, this would result in +5 DB, with exceptions (Sai, Shang, Main Guache, et al).
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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2015, 09:37:51 PM »
this depends on which system your using.
In Rm2 you have the penalty for off hand, which is -20, but then there is the non-profiecient penalty of -25 which could also be applied in this case, making the off hand -45. I would apply this to both weapons (the -25) since he has no skill with attacking with two weapons it hinders his primary skilla s well since he is trying to work something into the routine he has not trained.. so the penalties would be:
-25 primary hand
-45 secondary hand.

thanks! this feels realistic to me. making a second, untrained attack with the off hand would certainly hinder your primary attack, otherwise everyone would be using two weapons wouldn't they?

im curious as to how many GM's out here allow the Two-Weapon Combo skill. Its very powerful.

Offline Warl

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2015, 10:46:35 PM »
I allow it, but it is only powerful if the balances are not used.

Having to develop 2 skills is not cheap and spreads your dps further,
All parry mods being subtracted from both Obs can have it's effect as well.

Additionally, I apply a Initiative modifier... so though they attack more often having two blades, each blade attacks slower than it would have used single style.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2015, 03:16:42 PM »
its -20/-40 in my game unless you are ambidextrous, then 0/-20.

even so, a Vard is a bad mother...SHUT YOUR MOUTH!
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2015, 04:12:34 PM »
Here's an idea of what I've written up...

DUAL ATTACKS*
Dual Attacks are when a character is using a weapon that can effectively be used to attack with more than one point. The Quarterstaff, Three Section Staff, the hilt of a 2H-Sword, and some “Pole” weapons are good examples.  Dual Attacks are commonly the result of Fighting Styles.  Bladeturn spells cast on the original attack action apply to all results of this ability during that action.

MULTIPLE ATTACKS*
Multiple Attacks are when a character has specialized in a weapon to the degree that they can effectively make more than one attack per attack action.  This is simulated by increased base damage, secondary and potentially even tertiary criticals.  Multiple Attacks are commonly the result of Weapon Specialization in a specific weapon.  (Note: Characters may not specialize in more than two specific weapons).

TWO-WEAPON COMBO
-   Off hand with the same weapon must be developed as a separate skill unless the player has the Ambidexterity talent.
-   Using two weapons of the same length longer then a short sword (roughly 2 feet) will result in a -10 penalty on the secondary weapon.
-   The two attacks can be split between two opponents with a -20 penalty to both.
-   When Parrying the OB used to do so applies to both weapons (and front facing foes if split).
-   For ease and speed of game combat both attacks are resolved at the same time. This is resolved as one attack action (60%-100% activity) and a Bladeturn spell would apply to both swings.

* These are skills that relate to how I've setup weapon specialization skills and combat styles that are restricted skills for Non-Pure Arms professions.
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Offline Warl

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2015, 05:18:15 PM »
how are you giving multiple attacks to dual weapons?
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2015, 05:38:24 PM »
how are you giving multiple attacks to dual weapons?

Those are two different things and neither are the Two Weapon Combo skill. :)

The Multiple Attack and Dual attacks are the result of weapon specializations.  Technically I have one for Two Weapon Combo, however my generic Two Weapon Combo rules are pretty close to the rules in RMSS aside from that.

I have ten weapon specialization skills that work a bit like Spell Lists in progression.  Each has ten abilities that you gain as you buy skill in them, much like you would gain access to spells on a spell list.  Since I don't use Exhaustion Points for their intended purpose, I use them for this process - again, much like Power Points are used to cast spells.  The ten specialization skills are...

1H Weapon / Free Hand
1H Weapon / Shield
1H Weapon / 1H Weapon
2H Weapon
Pole Weapon
Unarmed Combat - Strikes
Unarmed Combat - Sweeps
Drawn Missile Weapons
Triggered Missile Weapons
Thrown Weapons

An example of a Dual Attack is an "Unbalancing Strike" using a Pole Weapon where an additional Unbalancing Critical of two severity less.  Think along the lines of a spear wielder making a thrusting attack then bringing the weapon around and smacking you with the butt end of the spear.

An example of a Multiple Attack is when a martial arts user concentrating on Strikes is allowed to also make an additional attack using Sweeps in the same round that they make a Strike attack (or vice verse).
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Offline Icefield

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2015, 08:15:48 PM »
Two Weapons used at once is something I look at with a discerning eye. If you allow two one-handed weapons I would make sure to not allow multiple parries even if you are using that optional rule. Two weapons is most often a gimmick or duelists trick, and has no place in a battle. The fighter must place his body in a flat facing to use both weapons, and the actual chance of an extra attack is minimal.

The second weapon is good for setting up the attack for the main weapon or for blocking (but no where near as good as a shield). I think that the rules on Two-Weapon are pretty good for RMC, but I still think it's a dumb style for the most part.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2015, 01:19:19 AM »
It's a fantasy game, so I'm not really concerned with the reality even IF the reality says it's not viable on a battlefield.
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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2015, 06:20:10 PM »
how are you giving multiple attacks to dual weapons?

Those are two different things and neither are the Two Weapon Combo skill. :)

The Multiple Attack and Dual attacks are the result of weapon specializations.  Technically I have one for Two Weapon Combo, however my generic Two Weapon Combo rules are pretty close to the rules in RMSS aside from that.

I have ten weapon specialization skills that work a bit like Spell Lists in progression.  Each has ten abilities that you gain as you buy skill in them, much like you would gain access to spells on a spell list.  Since I don't use Exhaustion Points for their intended purpose, I use them for this process - again, much like Power Points are used to cast spells.  The ten specialization skills are...

1H Weapon / Free Hand
1H Weapon / Shield
1H Weapon / 1H Weapon
2H Weapon
Pole Weapon
Unarmed Combat - Strikes
Unarmed Combat - Sweeps
Drawn Missile Weapons
Triggered Missile Weapons
Thrown Weapons

An example of a Dual Attack is an "Unbalancing Strike" using a Pole Weapon where an additional Unbalancing Critical of two severity less.  Think along the lines of a spear wielder making a thrusting attack then bringing the weapon around and smacking you with the butt end of the spear.

An example of a Multiple Attack is when a martial arts user concentrating on Strikes is allowed to also make an additional attack using Sweeps in the same round that they make a Strike attack (or vice verse).

this system of progression sounds really cool. id be very interested to so what those abilities are! so do they get an ability every 2 skill ranks?
it actually gives players an incentive to go beyond 10 and then 15 skill ranks as quickly as they can.

i like the concept of dual attacks too. so you have the longer weapons like staff, pole-arm and 2-handed weapons give an additional crit of two severities less on each C,D, or E crit?

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2015, 07:38:22 PM »
Yep, giving players a reason to develop the skills beyond 20 is exactly part of the reasoning behind it.

How it works is, if you are a Pure Arms user, you pick a specialization tied to a weapon (only two are allowed - the idea being you could specialize in one melee and one ranged weapon/style) and as you gain ranks in that weapon you gain the benefit of the specialization.

You get abilities at ranks, 2, 5, 8, 12, 16, 20, 25, 30, 40, and 50.  Each ability takes a certain amount of Exhaustion Points to trigger, although a few are intrinsic/permanent (for example at rank 20 in the weapon skill you start gaining +1 per rank developed after rank 20 in order to combat diminishing returns).

If you want to be a generous GM you could say that the 1H/1H style applies to all 1H weapons, or you could say one type (Slash, Krush, Pierce), or you could say a specific weapon (a Broadsword for example).  In this way various GM's could limit the power of the skill to some degree per their own preference.

I could figure out how to upload the a word doc if there's interest in it.

Let's see if this works... this is the 1H Weapon/Free Hand style...
Keep in mind this is RMSS based.

1H Weapon/Free Hand Specialization
Rank   End   Description   
2         1        Quickdraw   Character may bring his or her weapon to bear without using an action.
5         3        Parry   Parry is increased by 50%
8         1        Shift Item   Character may shift an item on his/her person without penalty to OB.
12       None   Iron Grip   Fumble Range is either halved or reduced by 2, whichever is higher.
16         5      Non-Weapon Attack   Character can make an unarmed attack (using the brawling skill) on his/her foe.
20       None   Expertise   Gains +1 to OB per 1H Weapon rank developed from 20th level and up.
25         4     Dodge Ranged    +20 DB vs. one ranged attack
30         6     Dodge Melee   +20 DB vs. one melee attack
40         1     Adrenal Defense   Character may use Adrenal Defense using a single 1H sized weapon.
50        5     Movement Master   Character may perform a full moving maneuver (not additional attack) or move 50% of its normal base movement rate and make a full attack at no penalty to OB.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2015, 08:02:41 PM »
To give some better detail...

SPECIALIZED WEAPON STYLES

Specialized Combat Styles represent a concentration in a specific style of fighting.  Each concentrates on a certain weapon combination and grants maneuvers and abilities fitting to that combination.  Specialized Combat Styles are developed at the professions “Combat Maneuvers” cost.

To utilize a Combat Style a character must make a successful skill check using their skill in that particular Combat Style.  Once they have successfully taken a 'stance' they can use the abilities learned.  Characters cannot use more than one Combat Style at a given time.  The benefits of a given Combat Style are gained as the character develops ranks in the relevant weapons for that style.  So, you must learn the Combat Style to 'trigger' its use, and you must learn ranks in the relevant weapons in order to gain the individual abilities of the style.

To use many of the skills requires an expenditure of “Exhaustion Points”.  This system has replaced the mechanic of the same name in the RMSS/RMFRP systems.  So, in the case of the Quickdraw skill one Exhaustion Point must be spent to perform the maneuver.  More than one maneuver can be performed in a given round however each maneuver performed in a single round after the first doubles in cost due to the previous maneuver.  So if a character is performing three Combat Style maneuvers, respectively costing 2, 3, and 5 Exhaustion Points, the character would pay 2 for the first, 6 for the second, and 15 for the third.

(Note: I stated that Pure Arms users can develop two combat styles.  I would allow a Semi to develop one style and Non-Arms users to develop one style as a restricted skill).
- Cory Magel

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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2015, 01:36:30 AM »
Yep, giving players a reason to develop the skills beyond 20 is exactly part of the reasoning behind it.

How it works is, if you are a Pure Arms user, you pick a specialization tied to a weapon (only two are allowed - the idea being you could specialize in one melee and one ranged weapon/style) and as you gain ranks in that weapon you gain the benefit of the specialization.

You get abilities at ranks, 2, 5, 8, 12, 16, 20, 25, 30, 40, and 50.  Each ability takes a certain amount of Exhaustion Points to trigger, although a few are intrinsic/permanent (for example at rank 20 in the weapon skill you start gaining +1 per rank developed after rank 20 in order to combat diminishing returns).

If you want to be a generous GM you could say that the 1H/1H style applies to all 1H weapons, or you could say one type (Slash, Krush, Pierce), or you could say a specific weapon (a Broadsword for example).  In this way various GM's could limit the power of the skill to some degree per their own preference.

I could figure out how to upload the a word doc if there's interest in it.

Let's see if this works... this is the 1H Weapon/Free Hand style...
Keep in mind this is RMSS based.

1H Weapon/Free Hand Specialization
Rank   End   Description   
2         1        Quickdraw   Character may bring his or her weapon to bear without using an action.
5         3        Parry   Parry is increased by 50%
8         1        Shift Item   Character may shift an item on his/her person without penalty to OB.
12       None   Iron Grip   Fumble Range is either halved or reduced by 2, whichever is higher.
16         5      Non-Weapon Attack   Character can make an unarmed attack (using the brawling skill) on his/her foe.
20       None   Expertise   Gains +1 to OB per 1H Weapon rank developed from 20th level and up.
25         4     Dodge Ranged    +20 DB vs. one ranged attack
30         6     Dodge Melee   +20 DB vs. one melee attack
40         1     Adrenal Defense   Character may use Adrenal Defense using a single 1H sized weapon.
50        5     Movement Master   Character may perform a full moving maneuver (not additional attack) or move 50% of its normal base movement rate and make a full attack at no penalty to OB.

very cool ideas. can u give a specific example of how shift item would be used? Parry seems very powerful but i guess simulates a defensive style? No free disarm action? seems like that would be really useful. i really like the concept. just might need some tweeking fro my campaign.

so what have you got for ranged weapons like bows - faster reloading and greater ranges? trickshot?

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2015, 02:53:53 AM »
I think this is an older file now that I look at it more closely.  Shift Item and Parry should be swapped and Parry should indicate it applies only to a full parry.  There really hasn't been enough play-testing done on all these to see if there are any broader balance issues (and what might be a balance issue on one persons game might not be in another anyhow).

Shift item is just for getting something out (maybe a potion or keys/lockpicks, etc) or maybe picking something up.  To get over the top swashbuckling: If you got way up there in levels you could pull out a set of lock-picks (lvl 8 ability, but should be 5) and use them to pick a lock (lvl 50 ability) all while full Parrying someone with your attack (lvl 5 ability, but should be 8 ).  Course, if you have 50 ranks in a weapon skill I think 'over the top' is probably a little more common.

For missile weapons some of them are: Lobbed Shot (double range when firing at a stationary target), Aimed Shot (+10 for 20% action the previous round), Concentrated Aim (+10 per 100% activity spent aiming with a possible +50 max), firing when in combat, reducing reload times, a 'double shot' that allows you to fire two arrows, splitting OB between them, etc.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2015, 06:47:55 AM »
this depends on which system your using.
In Rm2 you have the penalty for off hand, which is -20, but then there is the non-profiecient penalty of -25 which could also be applied in this case, making the off hand -45. I would apply this to both weapons (the -25) since he has no skill with attacking with two weapons it hinders his primary skilla s well since he is trying to work something into the routine he has not trained.. so the penalties would be:
-25 primary hand
-45 secondary hand.

thanks! this feels realistic to me. making a second, untrained attack with the off hand would certainly hinder your primary attack, otherwise everyone would be using two weapons wouldn't they?

im curious as to how many GM's out here allow the Two-Weapon Combo skill. Its very powerful.

I use the TWC skill as it is in RM2.  It can be powerful, but there are enough hindrances to keep it in check. 

It's costly.  You have to purchase weapon category 1 as Short Sword "on-hand", weapon category 2 as short sword "off-hand", then Two Weapon combo as a skill.  That's three skill sets you need to dump DP into.  And if you want to be able to use a Mace in the off hand, you have to purchase weapon category 3 as Mace "off-hand" AND TWC with sword/mace combo.

The defense isn't that great.  While the defense is better than "zero", it really isn't that great.  Even a little buckler shield with Shield Bash skill would be more effective for defense and would allow at least a token 2nd attack.  Main Gauche does add to the defense, but there is a chart which shows how much DB each type of weapon imparts when used for blocking and it is quite low.  I can't recall where that table is located.  I've looked through so many books and the Beta for RMU that I just can't remember at the moment.  Since we played in an Elementalism world, there were always area attack spells, ball and bolt spells, and those can't be parried with weapons anyway.  Can't parry/block missile weapons with a weapon either.  We did allow the attempt to be made if the PC had Yado, and that was to block, not to catch the projectile.

The fumble range increases?  Is that in the rules or is that a house rule we added?  That may be a house rule simply because four of the eight people who gamed together were Martial Arts students and all agreed that trying to use two weapons made all around use of those weapons more difficult to complete.
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Offline markc

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2015, 10:10:54 AM »
 I like the rule change that if you are using 2WepCom that your fumble range goes up and I also like the mod that after some time that fumble range would/might go down.
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Offline Warl

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2015, 12:50:46 PM »
Spectra771

My reply was in relation to a character who did not have the TWC skill..

yes it is costly otherwise to develop the skill.

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