Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Marc R on December 31, 2007, 04:05:15 PM
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Reading this thread over in HARP:
One cautionary note...
The two gaming systems are far different in their approach to gaming - especially in terms of combat. What could be a fairly easy battle in d20 can end up killing multiple PCs in HARP if the players try to fight it out toe to toe with some creatures. While you can use the d20 adventures in HARP, you may want to review the adventuefore and make it fit better to a HARP style of play first before running it.
Run some basic test modules first and you'll probably see what I mean.
I was reminded of a moment when I contemplated running an old fave g1-3 "Against the Giants" in rolemaster. . . .that was if I'm not mistaken an 8-12th level AD&D adventure. . .using the x1.5 rule you'd get 12-18th level RM characters.
I think all the monsters except the Drow in the fire giants are right out of CT, but a direct "Out of CT" use of those modules would I think be far scarier than five or six 12-18th level characters could possibly hack. . . .
I think those modules would be a meat grinder on any party under 25th. . . the whole way combat and healing vary between AD&D and RM would make it almost impossible to do without demigods or an army.
Might make for a lot of fun though. . .any thoughts?
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A party of 4-6 PC's that are 12th-18th level would do fine IF they have access to easy healing that is quick and complete (powerful herbs, healer, lay healer, etc).
Many giants are LA, so holy or slaying weapons will drop them in one blow. SL foes are hard to drop even with slaying and holy arms, so i would sprinkle them in lightly. Example, in an encounter with 16 giants, I would go with one SL Mountain Giant, one Spell using Ginat either SL or LA, and the rest LA or Crit II. The slaying weapons can be part of the treasure haul when the PC's defeat the first holding/tribe of giants, but stash them in a vault and trap them.
Giants have low rock throwing OB's, but the crush attack table is very powerful, so if the gianst fight as a unit with melee amd missile support, it will be tough going. Roleplay out the giants taunts and screams and "THIS PUNY ONE IS MINE" sort of behavior, and the PC's will fare better. Still, when a PC gets to kockky, lob 2 or 3 rocks at him as he melees another giant. He will learn respect real fast.
lynn
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Giants can be pretty nasty if you use damage multiples for them (already in C&T iirc) and parry reductions for the PCs (see RMC IV or VII iirc for examples - 1/2 parry vs Large and 1/4 vs SuperLarge creatures). Rocks, area of effect attacks ("Squash little Knight with table!") and such like that will make the PCs respect them as well.
Ciao,
Old Man
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If anything I'm fearful that straight core RM2/RMC without any fiddle faddle might be too nasty for a party of say 5 18th level RM characters.
Module is in a box somewhere, but if I recall, the hill giants was a lot more mild than the other 2, but there's a great hall encounter with something like 40 hill giants and a small army of hangers on having a feast.
IIRC there are are encounters in the other 2 with dozens of fire or frost giants (with CT spell lists, egad!)
And again, IIRC an encounter with 2 cold drakes and one with a single fire drake that would be much nastier in the RMC version.
If anything, even if I decided to do it as a straight goof, I'm wondering if I'd need to up the party level from 12-18.
I guess a lot would matter as to how I equiped them with magic items. .. .I can think of a few items out of CT that would make an 12-18th level character at least 2-3x nastier.
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I'd actually stay with the pre-scribed (x1.5) characters levels.
As has been mentioned, the two systems are different. But so should be the expectations of the players as regards to the odds of survival... ;)
That "Great Hall" encounter? Well, the characters REALLY shouldn't be going toe-to-toe in this room anyway, even the scenario notes say this.
This scenario more than any other in the "Giant" series is more about stealth..
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I had more than a few giants in my latest campaingn...they are dangerous...yet I would say that profession is more important than level.
Characters with spells that allow them to go tag-and-then-be-gone will have a great advantage. Likewise groups with good offence will overpower single giants. The real danger with giants are their great range...a bunch of giants chasing you over the flat side of a mountain is execution of the players.
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We once had a giant campaign with RM characters which did not even try to beat the giants with brute force but found another solution which I think it should be done with giants. Fighting them should be extremely difficult taking size and all in consideration.
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A party of 4-6 PC's that are 12th-18th level would do fine IF they have access to easy healing that is quick and complete (powerful herbs, healer, lay healer, etc).
I agree with this, but the most importent thing about the party is how intelligent the players are.
With the RM combat system tactics become vital and a party that can ambush or out maneuver the opponent and repeatedly put themselves in a situation where they out number the opponent, will have a good chance of defeating allmost anything.
Especially if the magic users in the party use their spells the right way. :)
A simple spell combination as darkness (50') and Dark Vision can really help a lot and there are many other that are equally good.
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Our adventure in Haestra took place during a longer campaign and the solution basically was to send the giants sleeping or something with a ritual and the aid of that river Nymph living down there.
However, mind influenceing spells especially those which don't care about the target level are extremely helpful here and I think probably an easier way to deal with giants than fighting them directly head on. Seduce them, lure them into a trap or into doing something stupid and/or without paying close attention to imminent danger, i.e. that they fall of the cliff or something like that. (How I hate that last bit of the sentence and try to get it out of the writing style of my students. Well, none of them here, so I should be fine. ;))
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The social fabric and politics of giant communities will be all important to PC survival.
My giant communities are militant and divided. The strong lord over the weaker and there is anomosity between giant clans and types. Fire Giants tend to think Stone and Hill Giants are savage beast of burden who deserve to be second class citizens, and will not be biased if the party kills 20 of them (though a rare smart Fire Giant leader may see the importance of the lessers as fodder and military strength, which the PC's can counter by showing those lesser giants have already served their purpose, shielding their betters from the brunt of the PC offensive). However Fire Giants despise Ice Giants yet respect Cloud, Water and Storm Giants for their power, but will openly plot against Mountain Giants who challenge their domain (in my game, Fire Giants are the most numerous of the Giant clans and tend to form and lead giant communities, and human contact via elemental and other schools of magic are fairly common).
So the mindset of the giants and their respect for strength and utter disdain for the small and weak creates a unique diplomatic requirement, to be aggressive and strong mixed with condenscension and disdain yet respectful and proper, in giant fashion. I have met many players who revel in this role and are very good at it, as players enjoy being respected themselves, and enjoy operating from a position of strength. It is my belief that ALL parties of PC's are really miscreants and Lawful Evil at heart, chaotic evil when they KNOW they can get away with it. They cannot be that here.
RM is crit-master, so the fact there will be fights against quality foes means there will be injuries. Drawing from the wonderful simplicity of ADnD, I would hand out 10-15 doses of "heals any wound" potion. They go in with confidence, but not unlimited healing power, and if things get to easy, I can imperil the potion. This does not change the fact that the sooner the players turn this into a talking encounter, the better.
There are ways a GM can indicate the villians willingness to talk, an idea that is usually ruled out by players as they waste anything that moves. Giant families with nursing women and children need to run in fear of the invading monsters as they cry out, "EKK ITS A HUMAN MOMMA AND THEY ARE SO UGLY!!!"
Have young unskilled giants fight to protect the families and die doing so, in a rage and unwilling to listen as they try to protect their families the only way they know how: crush the problem. Let a PC or even Firegiant fireball toss broken giant child bodies around, one can create sympathy, the other display the absolute rule of the Firegiants and that they are answerable to no one.
A dead giant guard/adult lays at the PC's feet, and the giants being who they are, look down from up high and only hurl a threat or two at the PC's, commenting on how that guard was the weakest of him and thus stuck with the unpleasent duty of having lowly position of talking with violent fiends, and if they wanna real fight, well keep on coming. Then the giant walks away, alerting the community but walking away in very real disdain.
The more you make those giants real with thinking minds, the quicker the players will see they can parlay. After the PC's slaughter a few giants, you can even have two new guards talking to each other, wondering if they should parlay with these monsters who have already killed several of them and seen strong, while his companion shushes such talk as being above their simple station and besides, thats what dem lazy upper level ninnies do is talk. Rock Clan Giants CRUSH their foes...to say it a third time for players who need that sorta hand holding.
If not, throw 100 giants at them so they see they cannot win this via battle. Remember, Lawful Evil at their best, players always understand violence.
lynn
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Lynn
You're the man thats all I have to say.
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It is my belief that ALL parties of PC's are really miscreants and Lawful Evil at heart, chaotic evil when they KNOW they can get away with it.
Chaotic neutral when they can't but Lawful Good on Sundays - or when they need temple healing.
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heh, or even then. "10 gold pieces for healing? I pull out my sword and kill the priest for daring to even ask!"
I actually pulled this module out of storage, a couple of monsters in there I may actually have to convert if I attempted this.
heheh, on further looking it over, I think tossing dragon and hydra encounters into the middle of nasty drawn out fights may be overkill. . . .and that Cloud Giant ambassador. . .they'd be well advised to avoid actually causing him to start fighting.
On the flip side, I'd forgotten the haul to be had. . .talk about a magic item superstore.
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First of all: HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!
That "Great Hall" encounter? Well, the characters REALLY shouldn't be going toe-to-toe in this room anyway, even the scenario notes say this.
This scenario more than any other in the "Giant" series is more about stealth..
Actually, the few times I have been thru this module and the time I ran it, I discovered that the best way to defeat the Hill Giants (in D&D) is to attack them in the great hall using many area affect spells. Everytime we tried to sneak around, we encountered stuff and because that game doesn't have fast kills at that level the alarm was sounded everytime! Then we have to fight the more organized hill giant defenders and their helpers. Which killed us everytime.
As for the level. Not assuming they are going to have a bunch of "giant-slaying" weapons on hand (it has been a while and I do not remember if the modules handed a bunch of them out, but I don't think so) then I would go with from 20th level PCs (if they have around 6 or more PCs), 25th of they are only 4 or so, and 30th or even higher if only 2 or 3 PCs. Of course I would not think to run those modules with very few PCs - if I only had 2 or 3 players I would make them run 2 PCs each I think. A group of PCs taht have powerful magic items, especially if they allow them to do a lot of area affect damaging spells, should be a bit lower in level.
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I recall a GM once pointing out the AOE of a fireball. . .then the scale of the great hall. . .it'd take like 18 fireballs to barely cover that room.
My recollection of the last time I ran it involved a lot of sneaking around, a lot of use of the thief's backstab damage multiplier, and the fighter becoming progressively more frustrated and angry about all the sneaking around.
Though, it does remind me of another legendary fumble, I'll post it over there.
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=4857.msg75602#msg75602
I did notice that the tournament party provided is nine characters. . . I avoid large party play, especially at this power level, like it's got plague. . .especially in RM. . .9 PCs vs 20 or more opponants sounds like hour long combat rounds.
But if you up the ante to 9 Player characters. . . .level 12-18 becomes a bit more realistic sounding.
RM has a lot more specialization than AD&D, you can round out a lot of corners with 9 PCs.
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I wouldn't expect the mage(s) to cover the entire room, but what they usually did was kill the little stuff and damage the bigger stuff so that it didn't take 5-8 rounds to kill a single giant. Plus, you utilize the entryways as choke points so that only one could come at you a time. Again, this is a D&D tactic, though some elements are useful no matter the system.
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I always thought provided characters in modules were pretty weak.
However this is one series of modules I think you would need to up-level characters a little more as you now have magic using giants. A friend did convert this to RM (and Bloodstone Pass) and things got really bloody really fast. But still, it and the Slaver series does hold a soft spot in my heart.
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Perfect, someone has gone this route before. How did it work out? (Yeah, A1-4 was another nice set.)
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Will have to get back to you on that. Hopefully playing on Saturday and will ask the GM. Actually he converted a lot of AD&D stuff to RM2. The group involved, before me, however is rather legendary and the cause of several house rules along with banned book option rules. I am sure everybody had a party like that.
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IMO 9 RM characters of 15-20 level should not have a problem if they act tacticly. A big part of this is to know your enemy and what they can and cannot do. They should have lots of healing; spells, potions, wands, rods, mud etc. As well as lots of AOE damage items and other things to make the adventure easyier. Can you say bags of holding to hall all the loot? And portable holes to put the gaint sized items in so you can melt them down or take them back to study.
I have run it as a tournament style adventure where the last one standing wins and it was a lot of fun. My first D&D experience was also playing in G1 and really opened my eyes to waht could happen.
MDC
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Ah - they did start at 15th level for it. Sounds like they did all right as the player of the healer was quite adept and another player running an archmage 'had is way' with the SUC & Elemental companion so she could be considered 'beyond her level'.
Loved portable holes & bags of holding. Made adventuring much easier.
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Best version of that I ever saw was a Mirror. . .I forget which book it was in. . .you used it as a crystal ball, you could ask it questions like in snow white. . . .and could walk through it like a portal.
Knew a mage who got hold of that, he obsessed for months on keeping it safe and intact, carved out a hidden fortress and mounted it on the wall.
After that he'd "adventure" by watching the rest of the party on "TV" in the mirror, step through to aid them as needed. . . .and the party would just toss the loot through the mirror back to his place after each encounter. . . .
They were like locusts, once they were done with a lair, no treasure, no furniture, no bodies, nothing but dust left behind.
I think that was the pinnacle of "home invasion monte haul style" dungeon crawling in my experience.
Sorry, I tangent.
15th level? How many PCs?
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I always thought provided characters in modules were pretty weak.
I had a good laugh when I actually examined the pregenerated characters in Tomb of Horrors and realized that they didn?t have the ability to defeat the demilich.
Best version of that I ever saw was a Mirror. . .I forget which book it was in. . .you used it as a crystal ball, you could ask it questions like in snow white. . . .and could walk through it like a portal.
I think it was either The Village of Hommlet or The Temple of Elemental Evil.
I used to play in a group where the GM honestly believed that GURPS was the only system worth playing. His life?s goal seems to be to create the perfect Shadowrun conversion to GURPS, but he was always tweaking it because he was never satisfied with how the Matrix turned out.
Anyway, he wanted to take us through The Village of Hommlet, The Temple of Elemental Evil and the Slavers? series (converted to GURPS, of course) in that order, since most of us hadn?t played through those modules before. We found the mirror you described early on, so it had to be from either Hommlet or the Temple.
I think it was the Temple, because we entered the first part of the Temple, but as soon as we realized what the mirror did, one of the other players had an idea that allowed us to step through the mirror to the final room, skipping 90% of the adventure. Everybody else was laughing except the frustrated GM who had spent many hours converting it to GURPS.
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Hello Lord Miller, I have been unpacking some old boxes and came across some of my old gaming books. Against the Giants was in the box, I started reading it and remembering games from way...way to many years ago. The last time I ran this adventure was for AD&D 2nd ed, in the mid 90's and it was definitely a very dangerous module.
The first adventure in the "Great Hall" against the Hill Giants has a great potentiol for TPK's. Overly confident players can quickly find them selves over run, by the brute force of the Giants or simply by "numbers". If played properly the Giants should put up an effective, determined defence of their home, especially if they are getting advice from the "evil Elves"(is there any other kind of Elf? ;)). Also keep in mind that morale will play little effect in any of these adventures. These "beasts" are defending their homes, and in several cases their loved ones must be protected from the vial and "short" raiders...hehe
So its a battle to the end really!
Out of curiousity I opened up the critter books for Rolemaster( RM2 and RMSS) to take a look at the Giants. Could a party of high level Rolemaster characters handle the perils of this adventure? After reading the module over and glancing through the "critter" rules, I would have to say that any group would have to be very lucky indeed to survive the dangers of this epic adventure.
Rolemaster as all of us know is definitely a very dangerous game, where one "lucky" roll could end your characters life. The "Giant" series modules are really nothing but , combat encounter after combat encounter.....which in Rolemaster makes this very deadly indeed!
But I must admit, I am interested to see how this module would play in Rolemaster. So I have decided to start the conversion process busing the RMSS rules, mostly because I am more familiar with them. My group of players have not experienced "high level" RMSS play, the highest they have ever been is around 9th level.
I play using the "Realms" setting, and I figured I might as well start with the characters. With a dangerous adventure like this , I have decided to make 6 pre-generated 15th level RMSS characters. Once I have everything done I will invite the gang over for a marothon session(hopefully I can pull them away from WOW..lol).
I will post the Characters in the "characters" section of the forum under the name "Giant Slayers". I spent most of the afternoon making the first character....Tristan a Noble Rouge from from the city of Suzail in the Kingdom of Cormyr. I forgot how long it takes to make a character....lol (especialy a high level one..!!).
May the gods keep you safe......!!
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Thorbrin,
Keep us posted as I am also intrested in how it goes. I did a short adventure with giants that was fun and brutal. One PC choped down a giant and it fell on him [failed a dex roll or acrobatics roll]. Then when he was pushing his was out another gaint fell on him [this time I had him roll % dice and if he got within + or - 5 from my roll the gaint fell on him. He matched my roll so the giant fell right on him again.] The big joke was he played a dwarf and it was not the gaints themselves that were the danger but the fact that they had to fall somewhere once they were killed or put to sleep.
MDC
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I too can't wait to hear more. . .Off to go look at the Giant Slayers. . .anyone named "Beek Gwenders of Croodle" in there?
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Thanks for the kind words guys, its good to know people are at least "intersted"..lol
Right now I am concentrating on the characters, after that I will start on the module. I will try and post ideas, concerns and some of my ideas for adapting this classic adventure in this forum.
May the gods smile on you......"Keep your feet on the Ground!!!"
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The two biggest things that are going to make these adventures much, much tougher in RM than they were in AD&D are the amount of combat and the fact that giants in RM are much tougher than giants in D&D.
I remember running the giants series when they first came out way back, and the party that went through them started G1 at around 8th level (using 1st ed AD&D). They were fairly cautious, but they still ended up with a major fight in the great hall - but hill giants had sufficiently few hit points so a couple of fireballs took most of them out.
If I were to run them in RMC or HARP I would have the party be at least 12th level - and reduce the number of giants as well.
Very curious to hear how it goes Thorbrin. They were great modules, and I have always had a fondness for them. It used to be the ultimate Greyhawk campaign in AD&D 1 - start in Hommlet, do the moathouse and Temple, which should get you to around 8th level, then follow up with G1-3, D1-3 and Q1. If you had a group of players that could get through that without needing either a new character or a raise dead, then I'd think the GM just wasn't trying ;)
Hawk
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I too am very intersted in how this turns out. The level you have chosen seems pretty-good to me, so it sounds like it is going to be a lot of fun. i wish I could be there to play.........sigh........
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There has been a slight "change", I discussed the upcoming game with my group of local players. They tried very hard to convince me to change from RMSS to RM2, apperently several of my players prefer the older rules. I bowed to their wishes and will be using RM2 , for the game.
It just means I am going to have to re-work some of the characters I have already done.Anyways , I am off to character creation...lol
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Okay so I have decided to take a break from "character creation" and have plunged in to he conversion process of the module.
Glancing through the first "module" I noticed a few things that could make this adventure deadly.
1)The amount of Giants in the Steading is a little daunting! 26 Giants in the "Great Hall"!! Not to mention a Cave Bear pet that is as dangerous if not more danerous then your average Hill Giant.
2)In the Rolemaster system , most Giants have some sort of "limited" spell abilities.In my setting Giants do not have "innate" spell casting abilities. So the Giants will be losing their spell casting abilities.
I have decided to start the game with the "adventurers" summoned to a council of Nobles,Priests and Government representatives from local areas affected by the Giant raids. These worthy nobles will provide a "back story" and supply a map and a guide(Dwarf Ranger).
The adventuring party will consist of the following:1) Common Man Rouge lvl 15
                         2) Common Man Cleric lvl 15(Lathander)
                         3) Dwarf Ranger lvl 15
                         4) Gray Elf Magician lvl 15
                         5) Common Man Fighter lvl 15
                         6) 1/2 Elf Warrior Mage lvl 15
                         7)N.P.C Common Man Noble Warrior lvl 15
To lesson the dangers of this first adventure slightly, I have decided to have the players arrive at the Hill Giant Fortress just as a "Raiding Party" is leaving the Steading.
The PC's will see a group of 10 Hill Giants,40 Orcs,5 Bugbears,5 Dire Wolves and 5 Ogres assembling outside the hall and then head south away from the PC's. In the unlikely event that the players are having to easy of a time this "Raiding Band" could return at a later date. Note that the monsters of this raiding party have been removed from the roster of other rooms in the adventure. Most notably reducing the amount of Giants in the "Great Hall" by 10!
I noticed that the author of this module, was very fond of "Intelligent" magical swords. As a matter of fact every magic sword found in this first adventure is "Intelligent". There are three swords, I have decided that one Intelligent weapon is more then enough...lol The Giant Slaying sword in the "Cloud Giants Room" will retain its "Intelligence".
The rest of the module was actualy very simple to convert. With one minor change.
Manticores in my "setting" do not have Poison Stingers for tails, they have the more "D&D" tail spikes....gaining a (light crossbow volley..attack instead).
I am looking forward to actualy playing through this, well back to slaving away at character creation.
Its kinda funny that it took an "afternoon" to convert the module, but its been almost two weeks and I am still not done making all of the "characters"..lol
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One thought I remembered from the last time we played G1-G3 was we used magical wall spells and spells to block the giants line of sight, then put walls behind walls and then a big pit so the giants had to go through a guantlet before the could get to the group. Also after casting their other spells the casters pumed area affecting damage spells into the main room. This made the main chamber a lot easier to handle than a strait out fight. How did we know what was thier? We had a thief type with either a ring of invisability or the spell cast on him scouting the place out first, and getting the ginats to chase him to our ambush site.
MDC
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Markc, Did the GM have the giants using their innate spell lists?
Thorb, do you intend to?
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LM,
I dont remember as it was about 20 years ago but I do reember that that was how we got through it as the gaints were taking a fair amont of damage from the walls and stuff we had set up.
Also I do not remember Hill Gaints haveing lots of inate spell abilities. I do remember that there was at least 1 or 2 spell casters and an embesarry from the Fost Gaints and some Hill Gaints had some magic items to deal with magic. But I also reember that we had 1 magic item based on Lord of the Rings, rings of power. I had the Ring of Illusion so spells I cast were at 25th+ level and I had access to all illusionist spells. The game was loosly based on D&D and quite a few home rules. So many in fact that I would call it a different game entirelly.
MDC
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The hill giant innates are pretty weak, but the frost and fire get Ice and Fire law respectively. . . .even at base levels you could see some nastiness that way.
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If I were to do this, I would drop the Ice/Fire Law from the giants. This, IMO, keeps the tone and difficulty of the original modules intact (well, more intact anway).
When converting, I always try to go with "the simplest solution that works" method. I think that dropping the giants down in difficulty is easier than adjusting the entirety of the module to compensate for the increased difficulty of the giants. YMMV.
jolt
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I plan to remove the "Giants" innate spell lists. Mostly to keep the "theme" of the original module as "Jolt" mentioned.The Hill Giants spell lists are very minor , but the "greater" giants have more respectable powers available to them. The module will be hard enough without every single giant able to use "magic"..lol
Also "Giants" in my setting never cast "spells"...except for the very rare..shamen(Priest or perhaps Magician).
I have begun to convert the second module battling the Frost Giants. This is my favourite of the three! Something about Ice caves...giant berserkers and way..way too much treasure just gets my imagination going!
Well thats enough rambling for now, more to follow soon.
take care..!
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I agree--the Frost Giants is the best module of the Three. The setting is simply much more interesting and exotic. We kind of snuck around the Hill Giants--ended up leaving and coming back after the party in the Great Hall was over. Fire Giants was just an incredible grind--I was playing two high level fighters and they went from 90 or so hit points down to less than 10 and back again two or three times each. The DM was kind enough to allow us to get away with spiking doors shut (like that would really stop fire giants!) so we could rest and recover spells a few times, but it was still a struggle.
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yeah, even in AD&D fire giants was a TPK waiting to happen.
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BTW, on the ring of power note. I rolled 10 "20's" in a special section of his game to determine how powerful the item was you recieved. It was a minor ring of power but was still very powerful and helped us many times in the game.
MDC