Topic: Find the caster

[shalafi]

Suppose we have a hidden mentalist who cast (without moving and speaking) a shock magic on an adventurer.

What the adventurer can know about the mentalist?
1)nothing. He dont know the shock is a magic.
2) he know he is a target of a magic, but he ignore who is the caster
3) he can recognize who is or where is the caster with a check on XXX ability.

thank you very much and sorry for my english.

[markc]

Shalafi,
 No problems about the English, we will try and help you out.


 First of all is shock, shock bolt?
 Second, if the caster is hidden can he see the target? Or has the caster located him by some other means.


 If it is a spell that has a visible effect, ie shock bolt then I would give the target a perception check to see where the caster is? Also IMHO, shock bolt requires sight of the target to cast as it requires a directed spells skill check.


 Now if the hidden caster casts pain, a spell IMHO that has no visible casting effect (in my game, your GM's game may differ), then IMHO the target would look around and get a perception check and what ever penalty the GM provides for the caster being hidden.


Does that help?
MDC

[shalafi]

I mean the Shock spell in the list "mind attack", but is equal: i want indicate a spell that no have visible effects, like pain, in your exemple.

Well, suppose the mentalis is in a very dark area, or invisible.

You think the target don't have any advantage in the perception checks due the spellcast? Right?

I understend this choice, but... in this way an invisible mentalist became able to kill a big amount of opponents without problem. Isn't?
There are a way to find a caster like this?

(I hope my post is understandable) (^_^)

Thank you very much.

[jdale]

I would say the target is aware a spell has been cast on them, but has no advantage in spotting the caster. The target's priorities will probably be a perception check to spot the caster, go for cover, call for help, and/or get out of the area as quickly as possible.

In the case of Invisibility, I would treat an offensive spell as an "attack" which breaks the Invisibility. However, the caster could still be hidden if they are using a different spell like Camouflage, Cloaking, or even just in a really good hiding spot. (In the case of Cloaking, target gets another RR when they are targeted by the attack.)

[shalafi]

In the case of Invisibility, I would treat an offensive spell as an "attack" which breaks the Invisibility.

Yes, of course. It was a stupid example... (^_^)

[markc]

In my game all elemental type spells have visable effects or trails back to the caster and it does not matter what realm the caster is from.


I agree with JDale, that the target has no special way to know who the attacker is. If the target is in a room full of people then IMHO it is virtually impossible to know who cast the spell.


Now, there might be other ways to tell someone is casting a spell. There are some spell lists from Castles and Ruins that if I remember correctly "ward" and area and do things for people casting spells. In one of my games I had castle spell casters carry ward stones that allowed them to cast spells freely in the castle and others suffered various effects depending on where they were in the castle.


Also the Channeling Companion has rules for temples, churches, etc in which "enemy" casters suffer effects in those areas.


In my game, in a properly sanctified and upkeptd church, all enemy spell casters "glow" upon entering and in some cases other things happen. This is a house rule but I think I use the rules from both the CC and C&R to base my church effects.
MDC 

[intothatdarkness]

I would say the target is aware a spell has been cast on them, but has no advantage in spotting the caster. The target's priorities will probably be a perception check to spot the caster, go for cover, call for help, and/or get out of the area as quickly as possible.

In the case of Invisibility, I would treat an offensive spell as an "attack" which breaks the Invisibility. However, the caster could still be hidden if they are using a different spell like Camouflage, Cloaking, or even just in a really good hiding spot. (In the case of Cloaking, target gets another RR when they are targeted by the attack.)

+1, especially since the caster's using Mentalism.

[Spectre771]

Suppose we have a hidden mentalist who cast (without moving and speaking) a shock magic on an adventurer.

What the adventurer can know about the mentalist?
1)nothing. He dont know the shock is a magic.
2) he know he is a target of a magic, but he ignore who is the caster
3) he can recognize who is or where is the caster with a check on XXX ability.

thank you very much and sorry for my english.

This is a really great example/question.  I agree with a lot of the points from all the posts, but let's blend them together.

- Attacking/casting spell breaks invisibility, but, if the caster is still hidden, well camouflaged, in a crowded room, that can be worked around and the caster may yet still be unseen, even if not invisible any more.

- The spell is causing a pain, not like getting blasted in the back with a Frost Ball where you can tell the direction it came from.  The pain just "happens" on the target's body.  (Or, it does cause magnitude and direction and the caster can choose from which direction it hits the target to confuse the target.)

- Not all spells have Verbal, somatic, etc. components, so maybe it COULD be cast without being noticed. (GM adding difficulty to that success roll)

- The target may not know it's magic, depending on the pain.  If it's Mentalism, the target's brain just becomes aware of the pain.  Hypnosis, in real life is AMAZING!!!! (I have lots of stories about hypnosis that I've seen and done to people.  It's just Mentalism in the 21st Century).  The target just gets a sharp pain or it feels like a heart attack.  Having heart attack pains wouldn't normally make someone think "Magic spell!"  Hell, I'm 43, been doing Martial Arts for 35+ years and I get phantom pains all the time.  Maybe my ex-wife is casting Mentalism spells on me, that witch!

- In an Elemental type directed attack, definitely some type of trail, residue, after effect leading back to the caster.  Obviously, that's how it is in real life, Duh! 

- Mind Attack spell without direction or magnitude?
- Invisible caster?

I would say the target has no idea it's spell initially.  MAYBE events, skills, clues will reveal it was a spell in later rounds, but not at first.  The target has no bonus to know who the caster is, unless there are only two people in the room and he's wearing a dark red cape with a pointy goatee and a sinister laugh.

[Falka]

I'd the RR into account, something similar to what happens with Mind Reading spells (if you save your RR for 25+, you are aware that you are the target of a mindreading spell). If the RR is a huge success, maybe the adventurer could know who was the attacker. If he pass the RR, but not for much, maybe he can know that it was a spell, and maybe he could take a perception check to see if he can spot the attacker. If he fails, but not for much, then he knows it was a spell but nothing more.
If he fails miserably, well, maybe he'll develop a sudden concern about his general health because that pain he is experimenting isn't normal


PD: Spectre771, I recommend you Subconscious Defense spell from the Mind Protection list to deal with that little problem of yours...or you can wear a helmet.

[Spectre771]

PD: Spectre771, I recommend you Subconscious Defense spell from the Mind Protection list to deal with that little problem of yours...or you can wear a helmet.

I was hoping for Channeling Feedback or Extraordinary Spell Failure.  Helmets been in fashion for ages now. 

[RandalThor]

- The target may not know it's magic, depending on the pain.  If it's Mentalism, the target's brain just becomes aware of the pain.  Hypnosis, in real life is AMAZING!!!! (I have lots of stories about hypnosis that I've seen and done to people.  It's just Mentalism in the 21st Century).  The target just gets a sharp pain or it feels like a heart attack.  Having heart attack pains wouldn't normally make someone think "Magic spell!"  Hell, I'm 43, been doing Martial Arts for 35+ years and I get phantom pains all the time.  Maybe my ex-wife is casting Mentalism spells on me, that witch!

All due respect to you wife (please don't hex me!  ), I think that the Shock spells (even "A") are a far cry from phantom chest pains. So, the target should know something has happened to them. What they know depends upon their experiences. (Meaning, you as GM  have do make a judgment call here as to the possibility of them having a chance at knowing what happened.) Here is how I would handle it in a couple of different situations (please note that my responses are geared towards Rolemaster Fantasy Roleplaying/Standard System, alter the skills mentioned appropriately for the edition yo are using):

1. In a Dungeon (or another equally unusual place of danger): the target knows they got hit by something, a successful lore check (Spell Lore seems the most likely culprit here, defaulting to Lore*Magical category if they don't have the actual skill) might tell them the spell, or at least the type of spell (mentalism, mind attack, etc...).  BTW: I would have them make this check in just about any situation, only if the caster is letting them know what is going on will I just tell them. Now, if the caster is out in the open, the target would probably be able to spot them. A hidden caster, on the other hand, is going to be a problem. If he is just hidden among a bunch of enemies the group of PCs are facing in a fight, then I would give the target PC a Combat Perception check with whatever modifiers I deemed fitting to the situation, but at the very least a -20 to -30. A success could mean he sees one of the enemy, not physically attacking, hanging back and just staring daggers at him, and for some reason he just knows. If they are just in some random room and the mentalist is hidden in some way (other than invisibility, others have covered that) then I think it becomes much harder because the victim could just believe they triggered a trap of some kind, and a smart mentalist would probably have a plan like that in mind. (Whenever one of the PCs gets to a certain spot he casts the Shock spell on them. Nefarious, no?) Now, it is up to some serious physical or magical searching; a Detect Mentalism spell would allow them to find the mentalist pretty quickly, though the mentalist does have a chance at realizing what is going on and an attempt at avoiding the spell. (More lore checks, followed by Observation checks and then Stalking/Hiding checks, it could get a bit drawn out, but if done right the dramatic tension could be like a destroyer/u-boat dance of death (dang it, I am forgetting that movie!).

2. In Town: Here the target needs to spot the one person paying them a bit more attention, so Observation and such skills - with the appropriate modifiers - are needed. Say the PCs are sitting around a tavern having a cold one after their latest adventure. Suddenly, the fighter gets Shocked! Unless he thinks of it, and is successful at hiding it, his friends are very likely to notice that he just got hurt because he would react to the pain. To spot the mentalist a few tables over, would require an Observation check with a modifier depending upon how busy/crowded the tavern is, where it being nearly empty except for the PCs and the employees could actually mean a bonus to the roll! Now, if the mentalist is very sneaky, say they developed skills in casting with even more subtlety than a regular mentalist (which is quite subtle already), then these skills could make it even harder to spot them; to the point that using magic detection spells/items/skills (Power Perception) are absolutely necessary.

Basically you need to keep some things in mind: Mentalism is the most subtle style of magic-use, the situation at hand (in a dark dungeon vs in town vs standing opposite each other, etc...), and the mentalist's own way of trying to stay hidden will all affect how and how hard it is to figure out what is going on.

I know this is a lot of text to throw at you, please feel free to ask questions if you want any part of this better explained. Great Gaming!

[Spectre771]

All due respect to you wife (please don't hex me!  ), I think that the Shock spells (even "A") are a far cry from phantom chest pains. So, the target should know something has happened to them. What they know depends upon their experiences.

Depends on the severity.  A poor roll or low attack could just be indigestion, but yes.  It would depend on the target's experience with magic and being the target such spells.



... and I'm tell my ex on you.   Expect a lot of head aches, indigestion, sleepless nights, and upcoming child support payments!  (I got out of alimony, )

[choc]

Don'T forget the mighty (i.e.) cat of the caster. If he uses a familiar or by other means can see through his cat's eyes, he can be hidden elsewhere, i.e, in a box, in another room....
If the cat is invisible, it might get visible while used as a prism for the attack spell, maybe not. That'll depend on the world (GM).
But a cat or a magpie pulling a firestorm behind it might be under the control of an invisible fire mage...