Author Topic: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?  (Read 6530 times)

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Offline Arioch

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Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« on: February 21, 2009, 11:52:33 PM »
The assumption that armor limits spell casting capabilites is part of the core of all ICE games, together with % based stats and skills they're IMHO one of their "trademarks".

These penalties are supposed to balance spell users' power, making them more vulnerable to attacks to make non-users more "appealing". Fighters wear armors that can save their lives, Magicians can't do that if they want to cast their spells.

But... are they truly a balancing factor? Has anyone ever played in a campaign where users could wear armors with no penalty? Would users be much more "powerful" in such a campaign? Would non users lose all their appeal?
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline markc

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Re: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2009, 12:21:29 AM »
 In my game I have seen an all Paladin, Magent and Warrior Mage party. I have a talent that can add +10 to any skill or +5 to a category and most of them put a lot of TP into removing the spell casting penalty. So yes it was fun and IMO needed to be in the game.
 But having said that I see not reason anyone can not use the rules or provide a bigger bonus for the skill in the game.

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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2009, 06:12:20 AM »
But... are they truly a balancing factor? Has anyone ever played in a campaign where users could wear armors with no penalty? Would users be much more "powerful" in such a campaign? Would non users lose all their appeal?

Short answer -- Yes (to all of the quoted questions).


Offline Arioch

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Re: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2009, 07:05:54 AM »

Short answer -- Yes (to all of the quoted questions).


I see... was it fun (the campaign with armored spell users, I mean)? Do you think that are other ways to make non users more appealing in such a campaign?
I'm tinkering with a setting and thinking of changing how magic works a little...
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2009, 09:07:46 AM »
It was fun if you were a spell user. For the non-spell users, not so much. Casters could do everything.

Now, you posted this question in the general RM forum, so I don't know if you are planning on using RMFRP or RMC, and there is a BIG difference...

In RMC, the CORE rule is that if you are wearing the proscribed type of armor, you cannot cast at all, period.

The ESF mods for wearing armor are an option. Using them increases the power of the caster.

RMFRP increases the power of spell casters by making ESF be core.


If you want to remove ESF mods from armor, then I would suggest replacing them with some other sort of drawback. For example, increase the number of PP required per spell based upon AT (i.e. 1/2 AT, rounded up in extra PP). Thus wearing AT 5 would mean that all spells cost Level + 3 PP to cast. For those wearing AT 20, that would be an extra 10 PP per spell.

Then for magical/material bonuses, add an extra PP per +5 bonus. Thus, Mithril Chain (AT 16 +20 DB) would require that all spells use an extra 12 PP to cast.

This way, they have to balance what they want to wear against how often they want to be able to cast spells. No minuses to casting, BUT there is still a real effect that has to be handled.

As for beefing up the non-casters. Use some of the stuff from Combat Companion. While pure casters still have to learn 1 weapon at a time, allow Non-Spell Users to learn weapon groups. Also allow them to semi-freely gain Combat Maneuvers for each weapon group as well.

For example, Fighters start with 3 Combat Maneuvers (each maneuver is only usable with a single weapon group - thus the Fighter COULD get the same one for 3 different weapon groups). Rogues, Thieves & Warrior Monks start with 2 each, and Semis start with 0. Then for each level beyond first, they get to select 1 additional Combat Maneuver.

The combination of these two steps should help balance things out between the two main types.

Offline markc

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Re: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2009, 02:34:09 PM »
Airoch,
 Yes it was balanced as pure's had better combat arts and more skills than the all semi group. It takes a lot more DP to get where you wan to go by bieng a semi than a pure anything.
MDC
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2009, 07:43:11 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions!

Quote
Now, you posted this question in the general RM forum, so I don't know if you are planning on using RMFRP or RMC, and there is a BIG difference...

I posted here because I'm still not sure of what version of RM I'll use for this setting (probablyRMFRP, as that's the system we usually play, but I'm considering using RMC instead...).

Another question: do you think that requiring spell users to wear metal to cast their spells (basically inverting spell casting armor penalties) would still be unbalancing?  ???
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline markc

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Re: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2009, 09:04:36 PM »
 IMO it might be but in an oriental magic system it might be required as metal is an element. Also it just depends on if you let PC's just walk around town in armor? If so it is not a big penalty IMO but if you do not let people wear armor around town it is more of a hindrance.
MDC
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Offline dutch206

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Re: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2009, 10:02:19 PM »
Um, mentalists are spellcasters and they can wear armor.  ;D
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2009, 12:50:32 AM »
The value of the armor-based limitations on spell-casting depend on several factors:

Are superstitious peasants frequently killing the wandering adventurer who doesn't wear any armor?

Are robes that protect as AT-12 commonly available at the level you expect to play at?

Is armor even that available in the first place? If you are playing a Stone Age game, with soft armor the only thing available, not being to wear metal because the spirits don't like it won't mean much.
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Offline markc

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Re: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2009, 02:04:54 AM »
 Or as rdanhenry points out are you in an oriental type setting? Because if you are you only wear armor in battle so armor type spells are huge IMO as are rings of shield, blur or anything that gives you a DB bonus.
MDC
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2009, 02:28:42 AM »
Or as rdanhenry points out are you in an oriental type setting?

No, I was thinking more of a steam/techno-magic setting, where mages draw their powers from the metal/machines they wear.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline pastaav

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Re: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2009, 04:28:23 AM »
Isn't the more interesting question:
Are spell casting penalties an important balancing factor?
/Pa Staav

Offline Arioch

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Re: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2009, 07:49:24 AM »
Isn't the more interesting question:
Are spell casting penalties an important balancing factor?

Well, that's part of what I'm trying to understand: are they so important or can they be replaced with something else?  ???
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2009, 04:08:09 PM »
Of course they can be replaced by something else. The much harder question is "how do I change it to create a reasonable new balance?"

The inability to cast spells before gearing up by putting on mechanized armor would be a balancing factor in itself. Now magic specialists become worse off than fighters when a surprise night or dawn attack prevents getting armored up before combat.
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Offline markc

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Re: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2009, 04:31:04 PM »
 IMO to replace it would mean upping the DP cost of spells.
MDC
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2009, 11:52:32 PM »
If you want to remove ESF mods from armor, then I would suggest replacing them with some other sort of drawback. For example, increase the number of PP required per spell based upon AT (i.e. 1/2 AT, rounded up in extra PP). Thus wearing AT 5 would mean that all spells cost Level + 3 PP to cast. For those wearing AT 20, that would be an extra 10 PP per spell.

This part (and Essence Companion rules on catalysts) gave me an idea for my armored mages: what if the number of PPs a mage can spend to cast spells depended on armor/gears worn?
For example:
- without wearing any kind of metal/mechanical equipment you cannot cast any spell (you can spend a maximum of 0 PPs to cast)
- wearing small mechanical devices or simple parts of metal armors you can cast only low-level spells (can spend a maximum of 5PPs to cast)
- wearing complex mechanical devices or full suits of armors you can spend more PPs to cast (depending on what/how many things you wear/bear).
- and so on...

In other words, to be able to cast higher level spells you have to wear more and more heavy and complex armors (probably reaching the point in which they become too cumbersome and heavy to be pratical) or other mechanical gear.
What do you think? Would it be feasible?
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2009, 12:22:59 AM »
Of course, it would be feasible, but you may need to make some adjustments after playing awhile in order to get the balance where you want it.

You should also consider if the mage-suits include purely mechanical devices as well. A low-magic device might be a mechanized gauntlet that goes up to the elbow -- and also includes a dart-thrower. A full suit might have built in navigational instruments, magnifying lenses, and a flint-and-steel fire-starter.
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Offline Fidoric

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Re: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2009, 04:33:18 AM »
ANd why not just apply armor MM penalty to spell casting ? Thus casting a spell while wearing full plate would incur a -45 penalty (at best) with ESF.

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Offline Arioch

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Re: Are armor spell casting penalties a balancing factor?
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2009, 05:24:10 AM »
ANd why not just apply armor MM penalty to spell casting ? Thus casting a spell while wearing full plate would incur a -45 penalty (at best) with ESF.



hmmm... no, I don't think it would fit my concept, as mages actually draw their power from the armors they wear their spell casting abilites should not be hindered by it, but only increased...
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.