Author Topic: How many spell categories should there be?  (Read 1153 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline netbat

  • Seeker of Wisdom
  • **
  • Posts: 255
  • OIC Points +0/-0
How many spell categories should there be?
« on: January 09, 2022, 10:35:15 AM »
I have been playing around with using HARP spells for Essence users in RM, mostly using the combined skill progression for NPCs so far(none of my players is an Essence user). I would like to use RMSS type categories and standard progression for spells(with ritual magic using only the category bonus), but the number of categories in the Essence Companion(20) seems too many to be playable and using the CoM Great Circles(~6) as categories seems too few. So...

How many spell categories do you think are playable and effectively describe the similarities between spells for similar skill purposes? What do you think those categories should be?
There is no frigate like a book to take us lands away -
                                                   Emily Dickenson

Offline netbat

  • Seeker of Wisdom
  • **
  • Posts: 255
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How many spell categories should there be?
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2022, 07:33:47 AM »
No one has any thoughts or suggestions?
There is no frigate like a book to take us lands away -
                                                   Emily Dickenson

Offline MisterK

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 655
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How many spell categories should there be?
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2022, 09:20:24 AM »
Not me, at least. I've used RMSS in the past, but the category system was in fine not what I was looking for.

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How many spell categories should there be?
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2022, 02:04:51 PM »
RM2/RMU guy here. Sorry, I have nothing to add.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Vladimir

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 154
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How many spell categories should there be?
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2022, 02:40:04 PM »
  The use of magic is only limited by the imagination.

  In one anime series, magic is used in reducing the Colomb effect in nuclear fusion, effectively combining magic with practical engineering.

 
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
-Lao Tzu

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,099
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: How many spell categories should there be?
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2022, 03:13:10 PM »
Looking at characters in our RMSS campaign (before we switched to RMU), pure casters had maybe ~13-14 lists and semis ~4. I would think you would want the pure casters to end up with ~3-4 categories and semis with 1-2. I agree that the category list in the Essence Companion is too granular if you want to use it that way (unsurprisingly since that isn't their intent). Also, they don't map easily to lists; many spell lists encompass multiple themes from those categories.

Looking at Channeling open and closed lists just for the sake of example, you might have:
* Elemental: Barrier Law, Light's Way, Sound's Way, Lofty Movements
* Healing: Concussion's Ways, Blood Law, Bone Law, Muscle Law, Nerve Law, Organ Law,
* Magic: Detection Mastery, Spell Defense, Symbolic Ways, Lore, Calm Spirits
* Nature: Nature's Law, Purifications, Weather Ways, Creations, Locating Ways

Whether you want to assign base lists to their own category or link them to the above is a design choice.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline netbat

  • Seeker of Wisdom
  • **
  • Posts: 255
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How many spell categories should there be?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2022, 12:56:55 PM »
Thanks for the ideas. I think I am going to use a variation on the 7 shek-pvar categories from Harn as there is already a breakdown of HARP spells to those categories in the HARP-HARN guide in the vault.
There is no frigate like a book to take us lands away -
                                                   Emily Dickenson

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,221
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How many spell categories should there be?
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2022, 12:57:43 PM »
Why not use the RoCo. III's nine classes?
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline MisterK

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 655
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How many spell categories should there be?
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2022, 01:34:19 PM »
Why not use the RoCo. III's nine classes?
I find them uninspired and somewhat confusing, because they mix effect, professions, and power source and overall, do not present a unified view of magic. I find the Harn categories (or the Ars Magica categories, for that amtter) easier to understand and handle because it is obvious they all come from the same principles of separation. As a matter of fact, the old D&D spell categories could work as well, except tha "universal" is a pretty blatant catch-all. Using the Elder Scrolls distinction can work as well, but some spells might not fit inthe classification.

Another interesting idea could be to have several different classifications depending on the magic tradition (e.g. the mages of the Empire in Warhammer have split their magic into eight colors, but that distinction makes no sense for the orcs - and for good reason, since the imperial codification was designed  by an elf who used it to safeguard human practitioners from corruption by chaos by limiting their exposure to different 'winds' of magic). In this case, classification only makes sense for the tradition that designed it, and other traditions might have other classifications that *also* work.

Offline netbat

  • Seeker of Wisdom
  • **
  • Posts: 255
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How many spell categories should there be?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2022, 02:30:40 PM »
Why not use the RoCo. III's nine classes?
I assume you are talking about the ritual magic classes? I hadn't looked at them as I usually use the RMSS/FRP versions of rules unless there was a piece I carried over(love those stress and neuro crit tables and rules in co III and IV). I suppose they would work, but I would have to expand the elemental class out to the different types and drop the cleric class as I am only doing this for essence users. It might be too much wrk to expand that out.
I find the Harn categories (or the Ars Magica categories, for that amtter) easier to understand and handle because it is obvious they all come from the same principles of separation. As a matter of fact, the old D&D spell categories could work as well, except tha "universal" is a pretty blatant catch-all. Using the Elder Scrolls distinction can work as well, but some spells might not fit inthe classification.
What are the Are Magica and Elder Scrolls categories? I am not familiar with them.

Another interesting idea could be to have several different classifications depending on the magic tradition (e.g. the mages of the Empire in Warhammer have split their magic into eight colors, but that distinction makes no sense for the orcs - and for good reason, since the imperial codification was designed  by an elf who used it to safeguard human practitioners from corruption by chaos by limiting their exposure to different 'winds' of magic). In this case, classification only makes sense for the tradition that designed it, and other traditions might have other classifications that *also* work.
I would really love to do something like this! Unfortunately it is bad enough trying to separate spells out into one set of categories and spell costs, doing it multiple times for different cultures/traditions is just too much work for me.
There is no frigate like a book to take us lands away -
                                                   Emily Dickenson

Offline MisterK

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 655
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How many spell categories should there be?
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2022, 01:41:13 PM »
What are the Are Magica and Elder Scrolls categories? I am not familiar with them.
Ars Magica splits classical magic into five techniques and ten forms, with a spell being primarily of one technique and one form (with possible secondary techniques and/or forms applying as limitations).
The five techniques are: Creo (creation), Intellego (understanding and perception), Muto (change), Perdo (destruction) and Rego (control).
The ten forms are: Animal (self-explanatory), Aquam (water and ice), Auram (air), Corpus (body), Herbam (plant), Ignem (fire), Imaginem (illusions), Mentem (thoughts), Terram (earth) and Vim (raw magic energy, also summoning).

Elder Scrolls magic is all about effects : Alteration, Conjuration, Destruction, Illusion, Mysticism, Restoration. The skills of Alchemy and Enchanting round out the magical abilities.

Quote
Another interesting idea could be to have several different classifications depending on the magic tradition (e.g. the mages of the Empire in Warhammer have split their magic into eight colors, but that distinction makes no sense for the orcs - and for good reason, since the imperial codification was designed  by an elf who used it to safeguard human practitioners from corruption by chaos by limiting their exposure to different 'winds' of magic). In this case, classification only makes sense for the tradition that designed it, and other traditions might have other classifications that *also* work.
I would really love to do something like this! Unfortunately it is bad enough trying to separate spells out into one set of categories and spell costs, doing it multiple times for different cultures/traditions is just too much work for me.
Practically, you would want to separate by lists and not by individual spells in order to make your work easier, but I agree that, theoretically, each spell should be examined on its own, since two spells in the same list could end up being in different categories because lists don't necessarily follow the same classification logic.

As for traditions, you can always find inspiration in the old standards (of RPGs, at least):
- "asian" tradition would be that of the five elements. Sub-traditions would have different element sets. Think Legend of the Five Rings, for instance, but other RPGs of asian inspiration would help as well.
- "classical" occidental tradition would split between elemental (with four classical elements) and spiritual (with four humours which would likely correspond with the type of spirits - demons, ghosts, the fey, and spirits of man for instance).
- "native" tradition would split between a number of iconic great spirits - think native american (either north, meso, or south native americans, who would have very different 'gods'). In this kind of tradition, the distinction between magic and religion does not really exist since magic comes from the greater entities which are gods.
- I don't really know the oriental (near and middle east, mostly arabian in inspiration) magic split, but I would assume that, once again, religion would play a significant role, albeit in a very different way (probably with a quasi-scientific bias - science, religion and magic were all but thee facets of the same stone).

The core partition concepts depend on the way magic is perceived : is it a quasi-scientific exploration of the unknown, with no relation with religion (medieval occidental alchemy) ? Is it scientific but with a religious foundation (arabic after the dawn of Islam) ? Is it mostly based on a spiritual understanding of the world, and as such, mostly religious (most native spiritual magics, most asian magics) ? Is it mostly material (elementalism or alchemy) or spiritual ? Is magic based on the will of the magus, or on an energy flowing through the world, or exclusively from "beyond" and essentially a by-product of invocation (kinda mentalism/essence/channeling, but most spells would be available to all three traditions, only with different explanations) ?

I think Rolemaster is not the best game to explore those ideas because the structuration of magic is an integral part of the magic system and effects are a by-product of that, whereas a tradition-based system would start with effect, then assign a source according to the belief of the practitioner - leading to multiple explanations of "how magic works" - all "right" since they are able to produce magical effects, and probably all wrong :)

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,099
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: How many spell categories should there be?
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2022, 02:39:24 PM »
Along those lines, RMU's ritual magic breaks things down as: alteration, creation, defensive, destruction, elemental, healing, informational, summoning/transportation. So if you are looking for about that many categories, that's an option too. There is some (deliberate) overlap between those categories, which I think is appropriate because there are many effects that can be achieved in multiple ways.

RM in general does have three realms and six elements as core parts of its magic theory. You can treat those as more or less important features (e.g. Fire & Ice and how it structures the elements into triads) but it's there to some extent.

It's certainly possible to use RM while structuring magic in entirely different ways. In my game, I have five realms and not really any "elements" in a magical sense (just mediums for casting which are the realms, and forms of energy). The list-based system does make it a bit more effort to rework things that way, but once you've done it, it works just fine. Many lists can simply be reassigned to your new realms.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline netbat

  • Seeker of Wisdom
  • **
  • Posts: 255
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How many spell categories should there be?
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2022, 02:27:32 PM »
Thanks a lot for the responses and ideas, I will have to look closer at the art magica forms as the potential categories if I decide it is worth the effort to go through the HARP spells and assign them. I still like the RM lists and use them for channeling, but I wanted something different for essence as the list concept works great for me as codified spells cast by the gods through a channeler, but not so much for a mage/essence user. I like the HARP scalable spells much better for that.
There is no frigate like a book to take us lands away -
                                                   Emily Dickenson