Topic: Elves and SD

[Warl]

Now generally it has always seemed that RM elves where based off of the Tolkien Elves.

SO it seems to baffle me that Elves are considered Undisciplined.

If anything, they never seemed undisciplined. In fact they always seemed to be portrayed as Highly Disciplined and controlled. Poised and in control. Not rushing off, rash and heated.

When they Did become emotional? Yes it was a Power to behold, but that doesn't make them undisciplined.

I never understood the Self discipline modifier for elves.

[arakish]

Neither have I.

Elves are mortally immortal.  Barring a violent death (decapitation, etc.), poison (yes Elves can be poisoned), or a withering of the spirit (grows tired of the real world), Elves do not die from aging.  Although an Elf can show some signs of aging, such as having the "weight of the world" on their shoulders for many millennia, Elves always appear to be of a beauty we all had in our teens or early twenties, such as Legolas.  Once an Elf begins to approach the age of 13,975 years, they do begin to show signs of aging.  However, that Elf of 13,975 years will still only appear to be in the late 30s or early 40s as compared to us humans.

That said, an Elf literally has "forever" in which to complete any "project".  Thus, the saying, "It can wait since I can complete it later."

The SD modifier is NOT a modifier indicating that an Elf is undisciplined.  Rather it is a modifier indicating that an Elf "literally" has "forever" to complete anything.  Thus, they may not complete a project since they have "forever" to compete it.  The ultimate in procrastination.  "Oh, I'll complete it someday."

Sometimes an Elf can become extremely focused.  Good example was Feanor's creation of the Silmarils.  In such a case, the negative SD modifier can become a positive modifier.

IIRC, RoCo1 has a section that covers the "Elves and Self Discipline" thing.

Basically, it is not about Elves being undisciplined.  It is about an Elf's feeling of "I have forever.  Why worry?  Be happy."

rmfr

[Frabby]

When arguing Tolkien elves yes they can be undisciplined. The Teleri/Silvan in particular were portrayed, compared to the Sindar and Noldor, as much less noble "party faeries", with their pixie-like forest fires. Their rulers were actually Sindar.
And in the Quenta Silmarillion even the noble Noldor would famously throw battle order in the wind in a frenzy - and get pwned for it. I think this was even the pivotal mistake in the epic Battle Of Unnumbered Tears, but I can't check right now.

(Forget about the Jackson movies for a second - they shoehorned a lot of generic AD&D aesthetics into Tolkien's works which is generally where they dropped the ball for me. Their portrayal of the elves is both clichéd and oversimplified, and falls short at the same time.)

[dutch206]

Rolemaster Companion I deals with the "elves and seif-discipline" question.  (Rather nicely, I might add)

[Warl]

Now see, I already KNOW how Rolemaster "explains" it.

Rather than Parroting what the Books say, I am saying I disagree with it. I don't see this in the works of Tolkien as the Elves are described.

In those books, The Silmarillion especially, you don't hear about the Great an Many unfinished works of the elves.
The Fact is you actually read the Opposite, you read about the Many great and wondrous things they did Create the structures and edifices they created.

The Argument that they are ultimate procrastinators, from my view point of the reading of Tolkien's works, fall short and incorrect in my view.

My reading.understanding of it is more that they don't feel the need to rush a work because they do have the time to get it done and get it done right.
It is the Humans who rush about trying to get thing done quickly and experience everything NOW, showing little Self discipline or control over ones self or ones emotions, irregardless of the consequences, because if they don't get it done now, they might not ever finish due to their short life spans.

A Few Dictionary Definitions of "Self Discipline"

self-dis·ci·pline
noun
noun: self-discipline

    the ability to control one's feelings and overcome one's weaknesses; the ability to pursue what one thinks is right despite temptations to abandon it.

self–dis·ci·pline
noun \-ˈdi-sə-plən\

: the ability to make yourself do things that should be done
:  correction or regulation of oneself for the sake of improvement

Synonyms
    continence, restraint, self-command, self-containment, self-control, self-discipline, self-government, self-mastery, self-possession, self-restraint, willpower

Now How Rolemaster Defined "Self Discipline"

Self Discipline (SD)- The Control of Mind over Body, the ability to push harder in pursuit of some goal, or draw upon the inner reserves of strength inherent in any individual. Also referred to as: will, alignment, faith, mental strength or power, concentration, self control, determination, zeal, etc.

Now you may notices that the two Definitions, Real world and Game mechanic, don't actually Mesh. Especially when it comes to defining synonyms.

This, I believe is part of the Problem with the defining of stat bonuses with elves.

On the one hand, yes Elves have Ultimate patients... they can wait in the woods hiding unseen and unmoving for hours or even days, thus their great ability to Stalk and hide, and Get a Meditation bonus because they can sit for months contemplating the same subject. They have great control over their desires and emotions, seeing the humans as erratic, over emotional and, Shall we say, ADHD.

Elves are seen having great "continence, restraint, self-command, self-containment, self-control, self-discipline, self-government, self-mastery, self-possession, self-restraint, willpower"

They see the Humans as the ones who are weak minded and easily Manipulated.

If we go by the RM definition and synonyms: "will, alignment, faith, mental strength or power, concentration, self control, determination, zeal"

Elves Do have great will, Mental strength and power, concentration, self control.

perhaps they didn't have a lot of Determination, sure... the Zeal or Zealousness could be argued either way.

I think RM tried to much to Redefine what Self discipline means to where "their" idea of it didn't mesh. Especially when they applied it to Skills, it didn't mesh with the Tolkien concept of elves... so they tried to fix this with reverse bonuses/penalties to elves.  Rather than fixing their definition of "Self Discipline" to what Self Discipline really is and excepting the fact that Elves Do have it.

Motivation is what they are truly speaking of Elves Lacking. And, IMO, Motivation isn't what Self Discipline was about.
Nor do I think Elves Lacked Motivation. They just had different Priorities with their Motivation than that of Humans, AS, due to their long life spans, they had a different, dare I say Broader perspective, of life and what might be important. ( not necessarily what is important ).

[RandalThor]

Now see, I already KNOW how Rolemaster "explains" it.

Rather than Parroting what the Books say, I am saying I disagree with it. I don't see this in the works of Tolkien as the Elves are described.

In those books, The Silmarillion especially, you don't hear about the Great an Many unfinished works of the elves.
The Fact is you actually read the Opposite, you read about the Many great and wondrous things they did Create the structures and edifices they created.

The Argument that they are ultimate procrastinators, from my view point of the reading of Tolkien's works, fall short and incorrect in my view.

My reading.understanding of it is more that they don't feel the need to rush a work because they do have the time to get it done and get it done right.
It is the Humans who rush about trying to get thing done quickly and experience everything NOW, showing little Self discipline or control over ones self or ones emotions, irregardless of the consequences, because if they don't get it done now, they might not ever finish due to their short life spans.

A Few Dictionary Definitions of "Self Discipline"

self-dis·ci·pline
noun
noun: self-discipline

    the ability to control one's feelings and overcome one's weaknesses; the ability to pursue what one thinks is right despite temptations to abandon it.

self–dis·ci·pline
noun \-ˈdi-sə-plən\

: the ability to make yourself do things that should be done
:  correction or regulation of oneself for the sake of improvement

Synonyms
    continence, restraint, self-command, self-containment, self-control, self-discipline, self-government, self-mastery, self-possession, self-restraint, willpower

Now How Rolemaster Defined "Self Discipline"

Self Discipline (SD)- The Control of Mind over Body, the ability to push harder in pursuit of some goal, or draw upon the inner reserves of strength inherent in any individual. Also referred to as: will, alignment, faith, mental strength or power, concentration, self control, determination, zeal, etc.

Now you may notices that the two Definitions, Real world and Game mechanic, don't actually Mesh. Especially when it comes to defining synonyms.

This, I believe is part of the Problem with the defining of stat bonuses with elves.

On the one hand, yes Elves have Ultimate patients... they can wait in the woods hiding unseen and unmoving for hours or even days, thus their great ability to Stalk and hide, and Get a Meditation bonus because they can sit for months contemplating the same subject. They have great control over their desires and emotions, seeing the humans as erratic, over emotional and, Shall we say, ADHD.

Elves are seen having great "continence, restraint, self-command, self-containment, self-control, self-discipline, self-government, self-mastery, self-possession, self-restraint, willpower"

They see the Humans as the ones who are weak minded and easily Manipulated.

If we go by the RM definition and synonyms: "will, alignment, faith, mental strength or power, concentration, self control, determination, zeal"

Elves Do have great will, Mental strength and power, concentration, self control.

perhaps they didn't have a lot of Determination, sure... the Zeal or Zealousness could be argued either way.

I think RM tried to much to Redefine what Self discipline means to where "their" idea of it didn't mesh. Especially when they applied it to Skills, it didn't mesh with the Tolkien concept of elves... so they tried to fix this with reverse bonuses/penalties to elves.  Rather than fixing their definition of "Self Discipline" to what Self Discipline really is and excepting the fact that Elves Do have it.

Motivation is what they are truly speaking of Elves Lacking. And, IMO, Motivation isn't what Self Discipline was about.
Nor do I think Elves Lacked Motivation. They just had different Priorities with their Motivation than that of Humans, AS, due to their long life spans, they had a different, dare I say Broader perspective, of life and what might be important. ( not necessarily what is important ).

agreed

[Hurin]

But RM elves are not Tolkien elves. RM elves need to be balanced (I know it sounds crazy, given the lack of racial balance in the old RM books, but they really do need to be). This is one way the immortal elves suffer for their immortality and generally great stats, so that they can be somewhat balanced.

The real problem comes when these elves try to stalk/hide, because I agree it seems odd that forest elves would be poor at hiding. As Dutch noted, RM has tried various ways of dealing with this issue (I believe some of the companions also revisited it? Maybe RMC I?).

The easy fix is to change Stalk/Hide from Ag/SD/In to Ag/Qu/In.

[jdale]

You can change your conception of elves to match the stats or you can change the stats to match your conception of elves. No real problem either way, but if you change the stats you should make some balancing negative adjustment as well. I agree Tolkien elves did not seem self-discipline impaired, but Tolkien elves are not balanced, nor were they meant to be. They are superior.

For my setting, I chose to play up the "flightiness." My elves are in the habit of working on many long-term projects at once. They are also able to easily and silently communicate with other elves at a distance, so they may be having multiple conversations. (Sort of like teenagers who are always texting.) And many can detect emotions magically, so they don't feel any particular need to make eye contact. Put that together and a human will take them as flighty, distracted, and aloof. From the elves' perspective, humans are short-term thinkers who have a distressing incapacity for multitasking and very limited senses. Elven society is designed to work for their traits. E.g. important roles are shared by multiple individuals so that they each have time to continue to pursue other things.

[Spectre771]

When I first started RM decades ago, I was confused by the SD stat for elves as well.  But I had to stick myself into the RM world.  Elves are nigh immortal.  They live for a long long time, they get bored, or see no rush at all to complete something or to stick around wasting time on trivialities.

Do they match Tolkien elves? No. They are modeled after them perhaps, but AFAIK Tolkien had no input in the RM companions.  It's one fantasy world being compared to another fantasy world.  It's all made up.   In "this" world, RM Elves have poor SD.  In Tolkien's world, Elves appeared to have high SD.  I never saw the stats for a Tolkien elf though.  It's all what was implied and inferred by author and reader.  One person's interpretation.

The beauty of being the GM, you can set whatever rules you want.  If you feel the elves should have high SD, then change the bonus, but find a way to balance it out.  If not, you've created a super race.

I agree, Tolkien's elves were meant to be "superior" and they behaved that way. In I.C.E. realms, elves are another race with their own flaws.

I haven't read the M.E.R.P.S. system.  How are the elves portrayed there?

[Frabby]

MERP doesn't have a SD stat. 

[Warl]

I felt/Feel they already had a balancing factor in their reduced/lack of Back ground options.

Though they may have bonuses in nearly every stat, they, unlike a human who gets 6 BO, aren't likely to get a +40 or better in many, if any, stats.

perhaps a better way would have been to give them 1 less BO or such.   

Take the grey elf, For instance, who stat wise gets a total of +40 spread through the stats, that is the equivalent of 2 Back ground options. 2.5 if yo want to say +15 is the base line.
Now true, they get +20 to meditations and Stalk/hide( to compensate for a lack of SD)... resistance to disease and poison, bonus to perception, and are immortal ( the immortal part argument as a "benefit" I feel is a cop-out as a "Game balance" issue as there really isn't a whole lot of In game benefit to this when you cans till "Die"/ be killed. No game really goes on long enough for a Player to have his character "outlive" his less lived comrades from old age.. And if it does, Those players are likely to be given a "step-up" with new characters to start a new adventure.

On the negative side, elves take twice or longer the time to recuperate from injuries. Their souls depart quicker so less likely to be revived from death.

So really? Was a -20 SD really needed to keep them balanced?

Trey could have been  easily balanced by taking away 1 more BO and giving them a +10 to SD instead... Or giving them 0 bonus to SD and instead give them 2 free ranks in Stalk and Hide?

Anyways.. Lol just felt the need to bring up the discussion again lol always love these discussions.

[Spectre771]

MERP doesn't have a SD stat. 

Damned bloody elves!

[Spectre771]

Trey could have been  easily balanced by taking away 1 more BO and giving them a +10 to SD instead... Or giving them 0 bonus to SD and instead give them 2 free ranks in Stalk and Hide?

Anyways.. Lol just felt the need to bring up the discussion again lol always love these discussions.

This is exactly what the forums are for; express ideas and observations, wonderings and what ifs.  It's nice seeing the forum staying alive and posts from so many people.  I've gotten some great ideas for campaigns and future characters from the threads here.


* - Mixed man has the most background options at 6.  I love my background options and I seem to have quite a few mixed-men characters. LOL  I have made up a couple of elf characters and I just tailored their skill selection around the stat bonuses.  It was difficult to make a good assassin type elf with the SD penalty, but it made playing the character pretty fun and I had to be pretty creative with the situations.

[intothatdarkness]

With regular RM, background options were optional, so tweeking them wouldn't make a difference for groups that didn't use them. I always thought that the SD mod had more to do with how RM's designers saw elves, and it never bothered me that much. Grey elves also came in later as I recall, meaning they came from someone's campaign setting. That means they have a different baseline than the core elves.

[Warl]

With regular RM, background options were optional, so tweeking them wouldn't make a difference for groups that didn't use them. I always thought that the SD mod had more to do with how RM's designers saw elves, and it never bothered me that much. Grey elves also came in later as I recall, meaning they came from someone's campaign setting. That means they have a different baseline than the core elves.

I was talking the point of an elf with the most stat bonuses..
which a Fair elf has a similar range.... which is a core race... the High and Wood elves come out a little worse. at a total bonus of 35 for the high and 30 for the wood but both still have the -20 SD. Yet all other things are pretty much the same as far as bonuses go..  the high elf still suffers the doubling of healing times... 1.5x healing time for the wood elf.

[markc]

I thought Gray Elves were in LotR or at least in the Sil. somewhere or other.
MDC

[VladD]

Fair elves = Vanyar
High Elves = Noldor
Grey Elves = Sindar
Wood elves = Nandor, sylvan, etc.

So the grey elf is more or less the baseline elf.

[VladD]

@Warl:

I also enjoy discussions and you are welcome to start them, but if you want your intentions known, you should indicate them. Last few posts I have seen from you looked like questions on rules but turned out that you were looking for new ideas or a solution. That is equal fun, but it would be better if that was clear from the initial post.

[markc]

VladD,
 Thanks for the reminder it has been a while since I have had my head deep inside a JRR Book and not creating something of my own.
MDC

[VladD]

I make it a point of rereading the Tolkien works as working from memory or MERP books distorts what you know and in rereading I tend to find small bits of knowledge that seem to tie all the things together.

Running Tolkien's world for over 25 years has taught me that there is SO much to cover and only in the later years have I been going outside the comfort zone of NW ME.