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Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Thot on May 20, 2023, 12:42:00 PM
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I am thinking about the implications of a fantasy society for which the following conditions apply:
- magic of all three realms is available everywhere.
- character profession is imprinted on any person entirely by education in the first 15-20 years of their life (i.e., before reaching level 1).
- there exist strong states which force education that produces such imprinting on all children of all species ("races") as per the states' needs.
- one such state desires a militaristic, one other an economic from of dominance over its neighbeirs, a third one wishes to instead just increase the well-being of its citizens.
This is of course a simplification for the sake of the thought experiment; states' agendas change over the course of a few decades, but I#ll get to the difficult once I am certain about the simple.
Now, what distibution of professions among its subjects would each state select, in your opinion? How would their society look in practice after a few cenuturies, then?
Specifically: What rough percentages of of pure, semi, and non spell professions would you decree, if you were each state's ruler? How many alchemists would you want to have?
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A few thoughts:
Medieval societies are often said to have spent about 90% of their workforce on farming. That would translate to 90% being Laborers. Most human societies had 2% warriors at any given time, which would probably mean around 5% of people being trained that way. The remaining 5 % would be the ruling caste (those members of it that are not Fighters, that is) and the clerus, or clerics and monks and the like.
In many magic systems, you'd find a lot of options to save laborers. While RoleMaster Unified has the option to rapidly grow crops (with the Druid base list Plant Mastery), I cannot find any spells that will really help with actually collecting the grain. The Closed Essence list Rapid Ways might save you some time, it is not an actual mutiplier due to MP cost, relatively low impact (just +25% speed for a few rounds). No masses of summonable working spirits to support the realm on an industrial scale are available either – I take the liberty to rule out necromancy here, and we don't have constructs or the like yet.
So, no great change for the vast majority of people from the existence of magic?
It kind of seems so. What RMU magic (as it is now) allows you is to live on less land, but NOT with fewer hands.
Thus for the vast majority of people, nothing changes in any of the three states.
Sure, there might be a few "combat engineers" called "Magicians", and medical care is dramatically better, but the gains from that will not be multiplicative, merely slightly increase output by a few percent, as they are largely canceled out by the losses to other people using malevolent magic.
Unlike in some other systems, we wouldn't get an "magical-industrial complex" of people changing the world akin to an industrial revolution.
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Even without Alchemists, the Symbols lists allows quite a bit of automated magic. It is true that Spell Law doesn't do a whole lot to eliminate farming (though you certainly can do a lot to reduce both situational and chronic losses of production, by weather manipulation, food preservation, etc. that could certainly bring down the numbers of food-producers required). However, the availability of medical magic means a lot of improved productivity due to prevention and alleviation of illness and injury. Improvements in communication and transportation also allow for easier management of larger centralized governments and other institutions.
It wouldn't look like our Industrial Revolution in a magic-rich RM environment, but it wouldn't look much like medieval Europe, either.
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It wouldn't look like our Industrial Revolution in a magic-rich RM environment, but it wouldn't look much like medieval Europe, either.
Of course, no doubt there'd be marvellous (hah) differences! But I currently don't see the general economic fabric of society being changed. Which means you'd still want those 90% laborers.
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As a Rolemaster GM and world-builder I tend to create the culture/society I want, without extrapolating "what should exist given that spell X exists in the rules". If I want a setting where a lone magician in the woods is the source of awe for creating a magic light, even thought light spells are seemingly easy, then I do it by fiat, rather as the magician might say FIAT LUX. Try this approach! It actually works well.
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As a Rolemaster GM and world-builder I tend to create the culture/society I want, without extrapolating "what should exist given that spell X exists in the rules". If I want a setting where a lone magician in the woods is the source of awe for creating a magic light, even thought light spells are seemingly easy, then I do it by fiat, rather as the magician might say FIAT LUX. Try this approach! It actually works well.
What makes you think I have a preferred outcome in the way you describe?
I just want to things through to the end here.
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The above sentence was supposed to read: "I just want to think things through to the end here". Apologies.
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>there exist strong states which force education that produces such imprinting on all children of all species ("races") as per the states' needs.
I don't think that's possible. I would say profession is, like many human traits, the result of both nature and nuture. People are not born as clay and there are limits to what any individual can be great at. Normally it's not even easy to figure out where those talents lie, although spells for detecting profession could in principle change that part at least.
That said, and going with the premise as stated, I think if you make a lot of your farmers Druids with Speed Growth I, Rapid Growth I, Plant Restore, Animal Restoration, some weather control spells, I think you could massively increase your agricultural output. That permits a smaller agricultural class and you then have room to have a lot of Sanctifiers (can increase fertility even more) and other alchemists, as well as a much larger proportion of spellcasters of all sorts.
However the social implications of having your society depend on a very large class of channeling casters, who necessarily have some religious biases, could be significant.
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You don't need a huge population shift to make a major economic change. Just going from 90% to 80% agricultural workers will more than double your skilled labor pool for industry. The ruling class isn't going to grow, and even assuming that clergy double, you're still adding greatly to the pool of people who can do productive urban work. And it's far easier with magic than it ever was historically to hold together large territories like the Roman Empire or unified China. And then you've got the ability to support a higher population. Magic allow things like shielding a crop from untimely rain that would otherwise ruin it. Magic can make the food supply more consistent, and the limitation on population is the output of your worst years modified by how well you keep surplus storage to handle those lean years. Magic can help with both, which means a larger population, which again means more industrial labor.
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I think if you make a lot of your farmers Druids with Speed Growth I, Rapid Growth I, Plant Restore, Animal Restoration, some weather control spells, I think you could massively increase your agricultural output. That permits a smaller agricultural class and you then have room to have a lot of Sanctifiers (can increase fertility even more) and other alchemists, as well as a much larger proportion of spellcasters of all sorts.
Is that so? Is speed of growth, or the act of growing, really the great time eater in agriculture? Or would you just end up just as many people, but much less land?
I'd argue that sowing and harvesting is actually most of the work, and unless I have misread Spell Law, it doesn't seem to offer anything there?
However the social implications of having your society depend on a very large class of channeling casters, who necessarily have some religious biases, could be significant.
As Anakin Skywalker stated.... "This is where the fun begins".
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You don't need a huge population shift to make a major economic change. Just going from 90% to 80% agricultural workers will more than double your skilled labor pool for industry.
I am not sure the share of people working as laborers is changed much by RMU magic as it is right now.
The ruling class isn't going to grow,
That's a fascinating subject all by itself. For example, the scientist Peter Turchin argues that there is always elite overproduction, and that this induces revolutions and all kinds of upheaval.
and even assuming that clergy double, you're still adding greatly to the pool of people who can do productive urban work. And it's far easier with magic than it ever was historically to hold together large territories like the Roman Empire or unified China. And then you've got the ability to support a higher population. Magic allow things like shielding a crop from untimely rain that would otherwise ruin it. Magic can make the food supply more consistent, and the limitation on population is the output of your worst years modified by how well you keep surplus storage to handle those lean years. Magic can help with both, which means a larger population, which again means more industrial labor.
A valid point! So, we'd be looking at higher populations and therfore more people being free for… activities. Like spellcasting, for instance... of the desired kind.
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Thinking about warfare, I feel like "regenerate 40% per night" at least for most spellcasters results in a relatively grounded setting, close to the military realities of historical societies. No "sorceror princes", at least not necessarily, and regular horse-riding knights are quite the weapon of choice for rich people (though possibly buffed a bit by magic items).
Sure, in a 1:1 fight, a 10th level spellcaster will defeat the 10th level knight. But for actual warfare, you don't have 1:1 fights, but battles. Days, even weeks of fighting (or at least im some way competing) for hours every day. You don't have that kind of enduracen with spellcasting under the 40% per night rule.
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I think if you make a lot of your farmers Druids with Speed Growth I, Rapid Growth I, Plant Restore, Animal Restoration, some weather control spells, I think you could massively increase your agricultural output. That permits a smaller agricultural class and you then have room to have a lot of Sanctifiers (can increase fertility even more) and other alchemists, as well as a much larger proportion of spellcasters of all sorts.
Is that so? Is speed of growth, or the act of growing, really the great time eater in agriculture? Or would you just end up just as many people, but much less land?
I'd argue that sowing and harvesting is actually most of the work, and unless I have misread Spell Law, it doesn't seem to offer anything there?
You only do sowing and harvesting once per crop. In between you've got to make sure the crop has water and keep weeds from taking over. If Rapid Growth is still weather-constrained (which is unclear), you could pick the optimal timing (especially if you also have weather spells). And since it only affects 1 species, that grows your crop much faster than the weeds.
Maybe more importantly, since Rapid Growth has a limited area of effect (10'R for Rapid Growth I) but the amount of growth is so substantial (100x), you can basically bring small sections of your crop to harvest with optimal timing. Normal harvests are all at once, which is incredibly labor-intensive all at once, but here you can have them section by section and spread that work out over time. Then sow that small section again.
You can also sow fewer seeds, because you can use those spells to make them germinate right away and avoid seed-eating animals. Higher success rate.
(It's even better for herbs. Herb Production basically lets you turn a seed into a harvestable plant in 1-10 rnds. You don't need crops, transport, or inventory, just a flowerpot and a jar of seeds in your shop.)
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You only do sowing and harvesting once per crop. In between you've got to make sure the crop has water and keep weeds from taking over.
If Rapid Growth is still weather-constrained (which is unclear), you could pick the optimal timing (especially if you also have weather spells). And since it only affects 1 species, that grows your crop much faster than the weeds.
Maybe more importantly, since Rapid Growth has a limited area of effect (10'R for Rapid Growth I) but the amount of growth is so substantial (100x), you can basically bring small sections of your crop to harvest with optimal timing. Normal harvests are all at once, which is incredibly labor-intensive all at once, but here you can have them section by section and spread that work out over time. Then sow that small section again.
You can also sow fewer seeds, because you can use those spells to make them germinate right away and avoid seed-eating animals. Higher success rate.
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Hm. How would you quantifiy these benefits? How much workforce would these effects save, in your opinion?
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Multiple harvests, better utilization of labor, eliminating the risk of bad late season weather wiping out your crops... I think doubling the net yield is a conservative estimate. We've achieved that kind of result in the real world just by introducing herbicides. Continuously rolling harvests and weather control, maybe 10x? Depends on your assumptions about level distribution, effect on the soil, and water requirements though. At high levels you also have the ability to wipe out disease in large areas (e.g. grain blight), preserve food for long-term storage or transport, etc.
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There is a great set of guild companion articles on how spell lists could be used in a society like you describe; "The social implications of magic". It is pretty comprehensive and should be available in the wayback machine from 2008 to 2009.
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Dan wrote those. They are more detail-oriented than big picture. This might be a good place to start: https://web.archive.org/web/20191127234601/http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2008/
The one on animist base lists seems to be missing though.
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Multiple harvests, better utilization of labor, eliminating the risk of bad late season weather wiping out your crops... I think doubling the net yield is a conservative estimate.
Ah, but that is, again, just playing into how much yield per land we are getting. What we need to know is how much workforce we need to actually sow and harvest all that. The real work.
We've achieved that kind of result in the real world just by introducing herbicides.
As far as I am aware, the major point was actually harvesting machines, in terms of labor force savings. But in our example, no such machines are available.
Or have I overlooked a way RMU spell law could speed up work like this significantly?
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As far as I am aware, the major point was actually harvesting machines, in terms of labor force savings. But in our example, no such machines are available.
Golems. Bone or wood ones, so you can create intricate sifting methods.
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Golems. Bone or wood ones, so you can create intricate sifting methods.
Hm, aren't those extremely high level creations, and thus rather rare? I seem to be able to find only Stone Golems, creation of which takes a 40th level spell.
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Golems. Bone or wood ones, so you can create intricate sifting methods.
Hm, aren't those extremely high level creations, and thus rather rare? I seem to be able to find only Stone Golems, creation of which takes a 40th level spell.
If you're working from the assumption that people are going to try and mass produce for the population and, therefore, likely have some kind of profit structure as a result, then the cost of a golem might not be all that different than a farmer buying the various machines they do today (combines are in the six figures for example).
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The above sentence was supposed to read: "I just want to think things through to the end here". Apologies.
Approach A: "from the rules I extrapolate that 1 out of 200 people in the setting will have the ability to enchant a magical lamp so therefore the big city is full of magical streetlamps"
Approach B: "As GM I want magical streetlamps in the setting, so I create a magical mineral that is easily enchanted by this new Open Essence spell I created" or "I don't want magical streetlamps, so even though the magical tech is not that hard to do, people just don't do it, maybe the king forbade it so his guards can prowl the streets bearing the only illumination after dark, or whatever"
To me, Option A is boring and can't be done properly anyway. It just doesn't hold up. Games weren't meant to work that way. You might think that only Option B involves creative decisions, but Option A requires them as well, it's just that they usually turn out pretty uninteresting because they are extrapolations of different subsystems that weren't created with 10/10 hindsight and tight integration. Option A always becomes in effect predicated on societies seeking economic or military optimisation based on industrial or capitalist-era ideas, which I repeat is BORING.
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Multiple harvests, better utilization of labor, eliminating the risk of bad late season weather wiping out your crops... I think doubling the net yield is a conservative estimate.
Ah, but that is, again, just playing into how much yield per land we are getting. What we need to know is how much workforce we need to actually sow and harvest all that. The real work.
I meant per unit of labor. I think the improvement relative to land area would be even greater. 100x growth rates mean you could potentially harvest one plot of land every day or two.
We've achieved that kind of result in the real world just by introducing herbicides.
As far as I am aware, the major point was actually harvesting machines, in terms of labor force savings. But in our example, no such machines are available.
There are many, many advances that have improved agriculture yields, you can't just pick out one and think that is the whole story.
http://africarice.blogspot.com/2012/11/creating-awareness-on-labor-saving.html
"Weeds are one of the major constraints to rice production in sub-Saharan Africa. Without control, they can cause yield losses ranging from 28% to 89%."
https://pesticidefacts.org/perspectives/herbicides-reduce-hand-weeding-in-africa/
"The majority of African farmers identify weeds as a major problem with yield losses, which can range from 25 to 100 percent."
"These hand-weeding methods account for 50-70 percent of production labor."
https://croplife.org/case-study/herbicide-use-in-africa-would-lead-to-large-increases-in-crop-yields/
"Research with herbicides has resulted in yield increases of up to 55% in maize and 75% in cotton. "
https://www.iita.org/news-item/novelty-weed-control-method-boosts-ssa-women-cassava-farmers/
"Research has shown that weeding takes 50% to 80% of the total labor budget of cassava growers"
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00220388.2020.1786062#
This article discusses the poverty ramifications of herbicides displacing labor.
"Altogether, these households hired 65% less labour for weeding and banking when they used herbicides (n = 46)."
The exact numbers are going to vary depending on the crop, climate, etc. This is not a systematic survey, just trying to find examples that are not in the context of modern mechanized agriculture.
That's all about weeds which require labor, but rapid growth also defeats plant blights and pests. If you grow your entire crop in 1-2 days, there's much less opportunity for them to get eaten by pests.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13593-012-0105-x
"Globally, an average of 35% of potential crop yield is lost to pre-harvest pests"
In the real world, herbicides and pesticides also cost labor, are imperfect, and have health ramifications. But here we eliminate the need for them entirely, and by making our farmers Druids they also have access to healing spells, purification spells, etc, so the overall health picture improves too (which also improves the efficiency of labor since people are out sick less).
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Golems. Bone or wood ones, so you can create intricate sifting methods.
Hm, aren't those extremely high level creations, and thus rather rare? I seem to be able to find only Stone Golems, creation of which takes a 40th level spell.
You can make golems with Programmed Function (allows them to work without direct supervision) as low as 8th level. The up-front cost is significant but they last basically forever, so it's a pretty good investment for a city or nation. In agriculture, they could be suitable for plowing, sowing, and harvesting.
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Animate Construct is a 13th level spell.
Golem Making is a whole list, depending on the Size of the golem to be created, but it starts at level 1 with wee little Diminutive golems of a non-magical, non-metallic substance. Little wooden or ivory golems running around weeding or destroying snails would be amusing. And, in quantity, effective. Mind you, you will need higher level spells to put them on task. [Beta Treasure Law, but this is unlikely to have been changed.]
There are many other tricks Alchemists can use to help automate things.
Blessed Fertility increases harvests by 50%, though it can only be applied to sacred land. Still, monasteries in the real world have gardens and European monks, at least, are known for producing specialty food items.
Back to Spell Law, the Loosen Earth spell is pretty much only useful for gardening, but the Sorcerer's Loosen Earth True (9th level spell) will magically plow an acre a foot deep (plenty for most crops) in moments. And plowing was a lot more trouble than planting the crop afterward. Meanwhile, Alchemists are churning out better plows for those that keep working the old fashioned way.
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I'd argue that sowing and harvesting is actually most of the work, and unless I have misread Spell Law, it doesn't seem to offer anything there?
Frankly, if planting and harvest were the labor bottlenecks, you wouldn't need a lot of full-time farmers. You'd have a smaller group of farmers, then people with other jobs would pitch in during planting and harvest.
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Golems. Bone or wood ones, so you can create intricate sifting methods.
Hm, aren't those extremely high level creations, and thus rather rare? I seem to be able to find only Stone Golems, creation of which takes a 40th level spell.
If you're working from the assumption that people are going to try and mass produce for the population and, therefore, likely have some kind of profit structure as a result, then the cost of a golem might not be all that different than a farmer buying the various machines they do today (combines are in the six figures for example).
Huh, but that 40th level spell gives you a golem for 1 minute per level. That's great for specialized applications, but mass scale?
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You can make golems with Programmed Function (allows them to work without direct supervision) as low as 8th level. The up-front cost is significant but they last basically forever, so it's a pretty good investment for a city or nation. In agriculture, they could be suitable for plowing, sowing, and harvesting.
That doesn't seem to be a spell that is in RMU... was ist maybe renamed?
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You can make golems with Programmed Function (allows them to work without direct supervision) as low as 8th level. The up-front cost is significant but they last basically forever, so it's a pretty good investment for a city or nation. In agriculture, they could be suitable for plowing, sowing, and harvesting.
That doesn't seem to be a spell that is in RMU... was ist maybe renamed?
Golem creation is in Treasure Law. Only 2 of 5 core books are out (in post-Beta form) yet.
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Frankly, if planting and harvest were the labor bottlenecks, you wouldn't need a lot of full-time farmers. You'd have a smaller group of farmers, then people with other jobs would pitch in during planting and harvest.
But that is what a medieval peasant's life is. You don't toil on the field all year. They did not just pull out weeds or plant or harvest, they looked after lifestock, maintained fences and farming equipment, did services for their lords, etc. All of them did lots of other jobs throughout the year.
Other jobs that, however, boil down to being best suited for laborers and that need to be done. Currently (that is, with RMU Spell Law), I don't see magic changing that requirement.
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Golem creation is in Treasure Law. Only 2 of 5 core books are out (in post-Beta form) yet.
Therefore, I cannot use them for my campaign yet. :)
Looking forward to that book though!
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Did you check Treasure Law? See section 4.5, on making golems, and then spell lists such as the Sanctifier's 'Golem Making' list.
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None of them show for me.
Dan wrote those. They are more detail-oriented than big picture. This might be a good place to start: https://web.archive.org/web/20191127234601/http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2008/
The one on animist base lists seems to be missing though.
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Did you check Treasure Law? See section 4.5, on making golems, and then spell lists such as the Sanctifier's 'Golem Making' list.
Treasure Law isn't out yet, as has been stated. (Not a fan of beta files.)
When will it be out, by the way?
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Fixing everything in Spell Law is currently a higher priority. Once that's done we'll pivot to finishing Treasure Law and getting it out the door. Layout has already started.
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\o/
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Golem creation is in Treasure Law. Only 2 of 5 core books are out (in post-Beta form) yet.
Therefore, I cannot use them for my campaign yet. :)
Looking forward to that book though!
You're not really an RM user are you? lol
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Golem creation is in Treasure Law. Only 2 of 5 core books are out (in post-Beta form) yet.
Therefore, I cannot use them for my campaign yet. :)
Looking forward to that book though!
You're not really an RM user are you? lol
Well, the campaign hasn't quite started yet.
Of course I can improvise, use older books, use the beta files, whatever... but without some constraints, where's all the fun?
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Consider rather more mundane creations. I’ll let the philosophers debate the whys of it but churches are historically a place where the needy go. Imagine churches where there are altars inscribed with create food spells. Essentially daily vending machines not affected but floods and fires and basically last forever once made. That one simple creation could cause a massive ripple effect through any fantasy world!
Imagine a magic guild that created portals all over the map essentially becoming a transportation guild. Build it once and they just collect tolls until the end of time. Trade goods, passengers, armies… this is another “not difficult” thing that would radically affect societies!
Perpetual motion engines (via Telekinisis spells), elevators, fire suppression systems, magical healing devices, long range communication systems, lie detection systems, endless armies of summoned creatures, ungodly weapons of war…. If magic becomes commonplace, I doubt your fantasy world would look anything like the “fantasy world” we gamers are all used to!
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I'll just hope the remaining books come out fast. :)