Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: EltonJ on March 25, 2022, 04:58:56 PM
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How do you handle mooks? Robin D. Laws says that they only have 4 hits, and they are either up or down.
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In Rolemaster, I take the approach that Mooks are people too.
Mooks make sense in DnD as there is almost no chance, statistically, that a 5 hp level 1 Orc can kill a 100 hp level 10 fighter. In Rolemaster, though, as we all know I'm sure by example, even the humblest mooks can drop the mightiest fighters if the stars align. So I don't use mooks in the DnD sense. I like my fantasy Vietnam.
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Not really any cannon-fodder in our games. They make for boring kills.
The weakest humanoid you're going to kill is assumed to have at least adolescence ranks.
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That's true. Fully developed 3rd and 4th level NPCs generally end up being quickly-dropped mooks against my 8th level PCs, but every once in a while they pull off something amazing, or the PCs make terrible rolls and spare them for a few rounds.
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Not really any cannon-fodder in our games. They make for boring kills.
The weakest humanoid you're going to kill is assumed to have at least adolescence ranks.
I can second that statement! No matter the bartender, the acolyte or farmer, they all are at least level 1 and *SOME* profession. I even have a 'stash' of ready to inject skills and general combat ability based on the type they might be. I use the basic NPC chart in RMSS and go from there.
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CYRANO: 'To be struck down,
Pierced by sword i' the heart, from a hero's hand!'
That I had dreamed. O mockery of Fate!
--Killed, I! of all men--in an ambuscade!
Struck from behind, and by a lackey's hand!
'Tis very well. I am foiled, foiled in all,
Even in my death.
Countless heroes through the ages have been struck down by nameless peasants throughout history. Who fired the arrow that dropped King Leonidas at Thermopylae? Or the arrow that killed King Harold at Hastings? Mooks in numbers can be dangerous.
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Closer to RM (though I love Cyrano), a friend of mine once had his 14th level fighter suffer a lethal wound from a panicked level 3 orc who was basically looking for a way to escape and lashed out with his blade while rushing by. Attack from the rear, one high OE and 90+ crit later, the hero was down, leg tendons sectioned, and bleeding out.
Never underestimate a mook who thinks there's a way out.
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Countless heroes through the ages have been struck down by nameless peasants throughout history. Who fired the arrow that dropped King Leonidas at Thermopylae? Or the arrow that killed King Harold at Hastings? Mooks in numbers can be dangerous.
And sometimes even alone. Richard the Lionhearted was killed by a humble crossbowman. When Richard (on his deathbed) summoned him, it was discovered that the crossbowman was in fact a mere boy.
Stuff like that doesn't really happen in DnD, because of the mechanics. Rolemaster is kind of like the Dark Souls of RPGs.
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Countless heroes through the ages have been struck down by nameless peasants throughout history. Who fired the arrow that dropped King Leonidas at Thermopylae? Or the arrow that killed King Harold at Hastings? Mooks in numbers can be dangerous.
And sometimes even alone. Richard the Lionhearted was killed by a humble crossbowman. When Richard (on his deathbed) summoned him, it was discovered that the crossbowman was in fact a mere boy.
Stuff like that doesn't really happen in DnD, because of the mechanics. Rolemaster is kind of like the Dark Souls of RPGs.
Ah. No it doesn't. D&D was designed to be a level based system. The more levels you gain, the more powerful you become. Rolemaster is skill based, and I'm sure someone runs the game to be level-less. Rolemaster has levels, but they are used differently. Thanks for answering my questions about mooks. I'm pretty sure that Rolemaster wasn't designed to be a Action-movie simulator (Feng Shui is that!).
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Countless heroes through the ages have been struck down by nameless peasants throughout history. Who fired the arrow that dropped King Leonidas at Thermopylae? Or the arrow that killed King Harold at Hastings? Mooks in numbers can be dangerous.
And sometimes even alone. Richard the Lionhearted was killed by a humble crossbowman. When Richard (on his deathbed) summoned him, it was discovered that the crossbowman was in fact a mere boy.
Stuff like that doesn't really happen in DnD, because of the mechanics. Rolemaster is kind of like the Dark Souls of RPGs.
I was going to use Richard Lionheart as an example but I wanted to avoid a wall of text, such as Richard releasing the boy...who was later flayed and hanged after Richard died.
In one adventure using a combat simulator rules, my party convinced a 12 year old boy to snipe at a wizard with a heavy crossbow. One dead wizard and a child tortured to death by an irate lord...
GMs in my group us Mooks all the time -From bomb-laden children to backstabbing janitors, there's no wonder why my parties are always wary and quick to kill.
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Stuff like that doesn't really happen in DnD, because of the mechanics. Rolemaster is kind of like the Dark Souls of RPGs.
Or not. The day a NPC with his +10 BO is able to even hit my PCs with their 120 DB... Yes, it is possible if the NPC rerolls three times, which has 0.0125% of happening, which pretty much means it'll never happen (not to mention he'd then need to roll high for the critical roll to make any significant damage). Honestly, RM fans should get their mind out of the idea that RM is so much different from (A)D&D for the matter, especially as there are thousands of deadlier RPGs out there, including "famous" ones, such as Stormbringer or RuneQuest...
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...there are thousands of deadlier RPGs out there, including "famous" ones, such as Stormbringer or RuneQuest...
I'm not sure there are 'thousands', but I'm sure there are deadlier ones. We actually renamed Stormbringer to Comabringer after we played it.
But for me, the mere fact that a mook could roll open ended, however unlikely, changes the feel of combat and often the way characters approach it. One of my groups has just switched from DnD to Rolemaster and all of a sudden they are thinking about things like actually paying the guard's toll, talking their way out of combat, and even (gasp!) retreating.
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One of my groups has just switched from DnD to Rolemaster and all of a sudden they are thinking about things like actually paying the guard's toll, talking their way out of combat, and even (gasp!) retreating.
Paying the guard's toll does not require a more lethal combat system than D&D. It requires players able to play characters who are not bullies and outlaws, however :p
I don't know if it's a cultural thing, but since tolls were a standard part of medieval life (at bridges, mills, town gates...), people I know don't bat an eye when their characters must pay - they have the historical reference.
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Level is important here too. For a low-to-moderate level party, even if they don't have a serious risk of dying, they could be stuck with injury penalties from one lucky critical for weeks. For a high-level party, it gets easier and easier to wipe those out with healing so the consequences of bad luck in combat start to disappear. But if you've trained the PCs through the low levels, some of those habits and concerns and ways of dealing with the world will remain in their mindset.
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Shadowrun is deadlier than RM, in my experience.
I expect (and want) mooks in a game like 7th Sea, but in RM, not so much. I think the thing to remember is that not all combatants will fight to the death. Getting a moderate injury is usually enough to make them bow out if at all possible.
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Shadowrun is deadlier than RM, in my experience.
Games with firearms and no magic or science fantasy are very deadly. One of my friends ran a real world mercenary campaign and the people who expected to be playing "D&D with Guns" died often, even against faceless Mooks, as even a child is deadly when pulling a trigger.
As a war gamer, I always apply rules of modern warfare:
1) Never start a battle that isn't already won
2) If the fight is fair, you messed up.
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Shadowrun is deadlier than RM, in my experience.
Games with firearms and no magic or science fantasy are very deadly.
Shadowrun is not really a "no magic" setting. However, magic does not make it less deadly (DocWagon[TM] does, most runners can't pay for it :p). ANd, as someone said earlier, fantasy games like Stormbringer are really deadly as well.
As a war gamer, I always apply rules of modern warfare:
1) Never start a battle that isn't already won
2) If the fight is fair, you messed up.
That's probably the real difference between games - the attrition-based games where statistical approach to combat can be used, and those where you have to make sure the opponent doesn't get any real chance of hurting you back.
You can guess the lethality of a game by its pitch - if the authors want you to play action heroes, it's probably not deadly.
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...fantasy games like Stormbringer are really deadly as well.
As a longtime reader of Moorcock novels, if you aren't a god or Elric, you are just a Mook.
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"Paranoïa" has to be the deadliest game ever, since everyone is a mook there! "Call of Cthulhu" may rank second since, compared to the eldritch abominations the PCs has to oppose, every being is a mook!
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"Paranoïa" has to be the deadliest game ever, since everyone is a mook there! "Call of Cthulhu" may rank second since, compared to the eldritch abominations the PCs has to oppose, every being is a mook!
Paranoia is funny, but I can't stand to play that game.
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I played Paranoia with a group of Asians who didn't get the theme... They would constantly cooperate in what should have been a game of backstabbing...Not as bad as having people who have never heard of Lovecraft playing Cthulhu...who would load up on guns with no clue of what they were facing or how to fight it...which was no end of entertainment.
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Paranoia is funny, but I can't stand to play that game.
Like any game, but especially for Paranoia, you need the right kind of GM.
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Paranoia is funny, but I can't stand to play that game.
Like any game, but especially for Paranoia, you need the right kind of GM.
You also need the right kind of players. "you can laugh about everything, but not with everyone". There's nothing wrong in not liking a particular genre or sub-genre, and Paranoia is a (very) niche game.
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You also need the right kind of players.
That's pretty much true in every game. GMing Call of Cthulhu with people ignorant of Lovecraft or having no interest in detective work was like managing a train wreck. The same with Battletech with no players willing to command a military unit, in a game where commanding a unit is one of the major goals. Sometimes players choose to play a totally different game than the one they are actually playing...
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You also need the right kind of players.
That's pretty much true in every game. GMing Call of Cthulhu with people ignorant of Lovecraft or having no interest in detective work was like managing a train wreck. The same with Battletech with no players willing to command a military unit, in a game where commanding a unit is one of the major goals. Sometimes players choose to play a totally different game than the one they are actually playing...
It's not an issue if everyone explicitly agrees to play *that* game instead of the game as it is meant to be played. I know people who played CoC as a pulp-action game with biplanes and tentacles and they had a blast. Similarly, you could play Mechwarrior with non-military characters (such as medical personnel during a planetary invasion, or police officers having to deal with occupation forces...).
The only thing is, everyone has to agree to play the game that way. But it is basically true for every game - only, most of the time, people do follow the script implicitly.
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I played Paranoia with a group of Asians who didn't get the theme... They would constantly cooperate in what should have been a game of backstabbing...
I love that! I teach intercultural competence (including culture theories) and that is such a perfect example of a collective culture vs. individualistic culture that I may actually use it in my teaching sometime! :D
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Countless heroes through the ages have been struck down by nameless peasants throughout history. Who fired the arrow that dropped King Leonidas at Thermopylae? Or the arrow that killed King Harold at Hastings? Mooks in numbers can be dangerous.
And sometimes even alone. Richard the Lionhearted was killed by a humble crossbowman. When Richard (on his deathbed) summoned him, it was discovered that the crossbowman was in fact a mere boy.
Stuff like that doesn't really happen in DnD, because of the mechanics. Rolemaster is kind of like the Dark Souls of RPGs.
Ah. No it doesn't. D&D was designed to be a level based system. The more levels you gain, the more powerful you become. Rolemaster is skill based, and I'm sure someone runs the game to be level-less. Rolemaster has levels, but they are used differently. Thanks for answering my questions about mooks. I'm pretty sure that Rolemaster wasn't designed to be a Action-movie simulator (Feng Shui is that!).
I mean...yes and no? RM is certainly potentially more dangerous than D&D! But high level characters with spells and magic items to negate crits...sure, it can still happen, but honestly, sometimes the time it takes to roll out isn't worth it (especially now when we are lucky to get 3 hours of game time). Against the Darkmaster (a MERP retroclone) has optional mook rules that make taking mooks down quicker (while not reducing their potential threat...kind of like 4e mooks that could do the same damage as a normal foe of whatever level but died in a single hit).
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Paranoia is funny, but I can't stand to play that game.
Like any game, but especially for Paranoia, you need the right kind of GM.
You also need the right kind of players. "you can laugh about everything, but not with everyone". There's nothing wrong in not liking a particular genre or sub-genre, and Paranoia is a (very) niche game.
I played a game of Paranoia at GenCon once and the GM was terrible. One of those people that was obviously playing for his own amusement/power trip than caring if the players were having fun. You're right that you need players who all fully understand much of the point it to take each other out, but when the GM themselves is the problem it doesn't matter if every single player at the table is a good sport.
I've had a couple members of our RPG circle from the past that I just won't play under anymore. They aren't as bad as that guy was, but they don't seem to respect the players enjoyment of the game or their time. For example a game that I bailed out of during just character creation; The first session started with a fireball going off in the midst of the party (surprise attack) and one character went down on hits alone. The player then proceeded to sit for around four hours twiddling their thumbs while that fight played out. I would have been gone at that point. Something should have been done to bring that player in, even if it was to play enemy mobs for the rest the fight.
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...and the GM was terrible.
If you game long enough you will encounter all manners of GMs. I've had some brilliant GMs and horrid ones who have no business running a game.
In one campaign, a GM wouldn't allow members of the "white hat" faction (always portrayed as the good guys in the fiction) kill prisoners, so the players playing the NPCs kept up a tirade of infuriating taunts during and after the battle, knowing the GM wouldn't even allow players make mistakes out of anger. It was hilarious as some of the PCs had to leave the room to vent...and punch a wall.
I had to ask the GM if that faction's jails and prisons were vacant as nobody in that faction would ever consider doing anything illegal or immoral. He doesn't speak to me any more...