Author Topic: The Mysteries of the Gods  (Read 7864 times)

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Offline PhillipAEllis

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The Mysteries of the Gods
« on: July 05, 2013, 12:16:18 AM »
G'day!

Coming from a background of the study of Classical religions, I am very aware of what are called the Mysteries, sacred initiations and secretive cults of the Greek gods. Most were involved in securing a better deal in the afterlife: the most famous of these was the Eleusinian religion, which was so revered that we know nothing of their secrets, despite the best "efforts" of the Christian Fathers (as with a lot of their writings about paganism, they either lied or pulled stuff out of their own butts). There are some, like the Mysteries of the Cabeiri (ie. Castor and Pollux), which sought protection for sailors, that were concerned with other aspects of life.

What I was wondering was this: is there any scope among the various deities of Cyradon for Mysteries like these, and if so which gods &/or cultures would be most likely to have them? What do you think? What is your opinion on the matter?
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Offline markc

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Re: The Mysteries of the Gods
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2013, 08:30:40 AM »
 IMHO you have to have somewhat stable society to have these "cults" be active. When you are just trying to stay alive you do not have time for that stuff.
 So you would look to more established societies trying to adopt/initiate new members of emerging societies or brother societies asking for help from stable societies.


 I guess you could say what section of the world are you talking about?


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Offline Zut

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Re: The Mysteries of the Gods
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2013, 08:39:47 AM »
What about the gods of the Mablung (dwarves)? Refering to markc's post, you can exclude Griffons, Rhona, and Arali since they do not worship individual entities. The Gryx and Humans' gods could be good choices too. Maybe the Gryx more than the Humans, since the latter are the invaders (thus like Christians).
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: The Mysteries of the Gods
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2013, 08:52:38 AM »
I'll add that to the wish list of product ideas for expanding Cyradon....
A product that fleshes out the religions of Cyradon (and Anias) and if we can incorporate an adventure or two, plus a bunch of plot seeds for others....
Sound good?
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Offline Zut

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Re: The Mysteries of the Gods
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2013, 09:48:23 AM »
Good idea! For now, they seem a little generic and except for the Gryx, the gods don't have much of an impact on their followers.
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: The Mysteries of the Gods
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2013, 12:21:41 PM »
Many years ago one of my favorite setting support books was Faiths & Avatars - and I'm thinking along those same lines, but with a greater focus on the church structure in each faith.
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Offline PhillipAEllis

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Re: The Mysteries of the Gods
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2013, 05:36:35 PM »
I'll add that to the wish list of product ideas for expanding Cyradon....
A product that fleshes out the religions of Cyradon (and Anias) and if we can incorporate an adventure or two, plus a bunch of plot seeds for others....
Sound good?

Yes, it sounds very good, Thom. :)

Colour me interested!
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: The Mysteries of the Gods
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2013, 09:02:12 AM »
Quote
IMHO you have to have somewhat stable society to have these "cults" be active. When you are just trying to stay alive you do not have time for that stuff.
 So you would look to more established societies trying to adopt/initiate new members of emerging societies or brother societies asking for help from stable societies.

Among those societies that have been destabilized by disaster, such would be "the old religion" then, no?

Quote
Many years ago one of my favorite setting support books was Faiths & Avatars - and I'm thinking along those same lines, but with a greater focus on the church structure in each faith.

I've never heard of F&A, but I like the idea. Church structure is an outgrowth of the philosophy of the religion, so it should vary according to the underlying philosophy. As an obvious example, for a church building dedicated to a War God not to be designed for defense is ludicrous, as is the idea that its local clergy aren't trained as a "mission team" and will respond to threats and/or emergencies as such.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: The Mysteries of the Gods
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2013, 11:49:27 AM »
If I remember right, Faiths & Avatars is a AD&D Forgotten Realms sourcebook.
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: The Mysteries of the Gods
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2013, 02:03:28 PM »
Correct - it covered all of the major religions on Faerun (Forgotten Realms).  The follow-up was Powers & Pantheons and covered the lesser and demi-gods.  For Cyradon we'd likely only need one product to cover the gods across all of the pantheons, their places of worship, their church org structure, and provide info about the powers/abilities/spells that a member of their church can call upon.
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Offline Old Man

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Re: The Mysteries of the Gods
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2013, 02:28:37 PM »
Correct - it covered all of the major religions on Faerun (Forgotten Realms).  The follow-up was Powers & Pantheons and covered the lesser and demi-gods.  For Cyradon we'd likely only need one product to cover the gods across all of the pantheons, their places of worship, their church org structure, and provide info about the powers/abilities/spells that a member of their church can call upon.

It might also be interesting to include an adventure thread/outline (or even a full scenario) for how the Refugees restart their churches in Belynar (and the other settlements). Are specific rituals required? Perhaps unique materials that the (likely few) refugee priests could not bring with them (the priests salvaged their Holy books but little else).

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Offline PhillipAEllis

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Re: The Mysteries of the Gods
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2013, 09:08:26 PM »
Sorry to delay in replying, Mr Man; it is an interesting question that you raise. For example, it brings in questions of whether the deities require hallowed ground, that is, space deliberately set aside and sacnctified to the specific god or gods. and whether their temples required (like the Ancient Greeks) sacred boundaries. It also brings in questions like: what if there are sacred groves to the gods? And how is sacrilege punished?

What are your thoughts?
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Offline PhillipAEllis

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Re: The Mysteries of the Gods
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2013, 09:09:51 PM »
I'll add that to the wish list of product ideas for expanding Cyradon....
A product that fleshes out the religions of Cyradon (and Anias) and if we can incorporate an adventure or two, plus a bunch of plot seeds for others....
Sound good?

It would be something I'd love to contribute, coming as I am from a deep interest in the religions of Classical antiquity.
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Offline Old Man

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Re: The Mysteries of the Gods
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2013, 08:45:00 AM »
Sorry to delay in replying, Mr Man; it is an interesting question that you raise. For example, it brings in questions of whether the deities require hallowed ground, that is, space deliberately set aside and sacnctified to the specific god or gods. and whether their temples required (like the Ancient Greeks) sacred boundaries. It also brings in questions like: what if there are sacred groves to the gods? And how is sacrilege punished?

What are your thoughts?

One quick thought - if I recall correctly (and some of this may be actual rules and some my own moulding over the years) Harn (Harnworld) had a neat Piety mechanic where the various daily and special actions of the faithful lead to gains and loss of a Piety point total. Then in times of special need (or perhaps even in rituals or spell casting) those Piety points could be used to request special support from their god. A roll is made and sometimes the God helps outright, sometimes he/she helps but with conditions (do this, sacrifice that, etc.) and sometimes they enact retribution on the petitioner for the affront of pestering them. :)
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: The Mysteries of the Gods
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2013, 09:55:19 AM »
Sorry to delay in replying, Mr Man; it is an interesting question that you raise. For example, it brings in questions of whether the deities require hallowed ground, that is, space deliberately set aside and sacnctified to the specific god or gods. and whether their temples required (like the Ancient Greeks) sacred boundaries. It also brings in questions like: what if there are sacred groves to the gods? And how is sacrilege punished?

What are your thoughts?

One of the things I've been exploring elsewhere (on a private sub-forum you're on, Mr. Ellis) is the idea that ceremonies and rituals of "sanctification," "consecration" and "ordination" give worshipers a bonus against being used for "unholy" purposes. If you assume the ritual/ceremony is something that costs DPs to learn and PPs to activate, it's reasonable to assume that there must be some return on that investment, right? So for example, if the Catholic Church regards undead as "unholy," someone who was baptized as a Catholic, confirmed as a Catholic, given the Last Rites before he died and buried in consecrated ground in the church cemetery, should have at least 4 distinct cumulative bonuses vs. being turned into an undead, no?

It gives the cleric and his congregation both a reason to care about such things.

"Sacrilege" can be a very thorny problem indeed. In a world such as ours, where there is no provable source of magic power accompanying religious ritual, "sacrilege" can all too easily become synonymous with "breaking with accepted tradition,"  "annoying the senior clerics in your local area" or "doing something that is too easily misinterpreted." It's a different story when someone can make a Sense Magic roll and say conclusively that yes, there is Granted mana present, and it is of a unique flavor that identifies it as from the same God as worshiped by the very people screaming "sacrilege!"
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Offline PhillipAEllis

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Re: The Mysteries of the Gods
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2013, 06:40:26 PM »
I get where you're going with the ceremonies, etcetera; it reminds me of certain preventative measures that used to be taken when burying suicides, to prevent them from becoming undead. That sort of ritualistic approach to life can be interesting to explore in a game.

Sacrilege can also be defined according to the nature of the "object." For example: say there is a sacred grove, then sacrilege could consist of any act that damages that grove, such as drive-by fireballs, cutting down trees, etcetera. Say a certain coloured bull is sacrificed to a specific god--sacrilege could consist of taking one such beast dedicated to being sacrificed, and not doing so, so that, say, it could be used to breed more cattle with. (If you remember, such an event resulted in the birth of the Minotaur.)

Then there are the depictions of the gods--do you remember the brouhaha when someone lopped off the penises of the Athenian herms?
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Offline Zut

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Re: The Mysteries of the Gods
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2013, 03:38:02 PM »
One of the things I've been exploring elsewhere (on a private sub-forum you're on, Mr. Ellis) is the idea that ceremonies and rituals of "sanctification," "consecration" and "ordination" give worshipers a bonus against being used for "unholy" purposes. If you assume the ritual/ceremony is something that costs DPs to learn and PPs to activate, it's reasonable to assume that there must be some return on that investment, right? So for example, if the Catholic Church regards undead as "unholy," someone who was baptized as a Catholic, confirmed as a Catholic, given the Last Rites before he died and buried in consecrated ground in the church cemetery, should have at least 4 distinct cumulative bonuses vs. being turned into an undead, no?

It makes me remember about a spell list in one of the RM Companion (1, I think?). The list was called Ceremonies with spells to greate holy water, holy vestments, marriage, burials, etc. Not sure if it made it into the Channeling Companion though. I just like lists like this one, makes for roleplay opportunities.
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Offline markc

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Re: The Mysteries of the Gods
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2013, 05:15:07 PM »
 IMHO the Ceremonies spell list should be given away free and cheaply.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: The Mysteries of the Gods
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2013, 08:49:56 PM »
It was in RoCo I, yes, and it included Marriage and Burial and suchlike, however such spells only conferred the approval of the God on the ceremony, and did not list any concrete benefits. I don't think such "Ceremonies" spells should be any cheaper to learn and cast than any other spells... but on the other hand, I think they should confer benefits making them equal in value to other spells, too. I mean okay, a +5, say, vs. being possessed or turned into an undead isn't much... but on the other hand, a single casting confers that bonus for the rest of the target's life, so long as they are active in the caster's religion, and it can be made cumulative with other ceremonies. 4 castings and you get a +20 or so bonus forever. It can add up to a medium powerful advantage.
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Offline Old Man

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Re: The Mysteries of the Gods
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2013, 09:10:33 PM »

IMHO its a terrific utility list that helps define a church and/or organized religion based channeling character. I guess if you are concerned about cost vs. benefit (I never was), make it a half-cost Prosaic list perhaps.

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