Author Topic: D&D 5E and similarities with RM and HARP  (Read 5860 times)

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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: D&D 5E and similarities with RM and HARP
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2012, 08:32:03 PM »
Prof as templates with a group of spell list to draw from that allows every priest to be very unique was a major innovation for RM.  However, considering the ADnD school and spheres, it is not totally new, but it was for RM.  And awesome.  After that companion, I wanted every realm, i.e. arms, essence, mentalism, arcane and channeling, to be reworked in simular fashion.  Templates with training packages provides endless flexibility in character design.

I think I've said this before, but the original idea was to not even have templates, but rather take existing ones and use them to build the Priests.  For example, an "Anti" Paladin would simply use the Paladin template and swap out Base Lists (and possibly monkey with the profession bonuses).  But, long story short, after some 'negotiating' between us (the authors) and ICE we put in the Pure, Hybrid, Semi and Arms templates (which was sort of the halfway point between what they wanted us to do and what we wanted to do).  We wanted custom Priests, but we didn't see the need to create a bunch of new professions.  ICE, on the other hand, wanted a single template for a "Priest", which defeated most of the purpose and we flat out refused to do.  So we did a version of each spell vs arms balance.

We've toyed with all kinds of templates in our own games as you can imagine.  Rangers always get reworked in our campaigns as their base list package, to be blunt, utterly sucks.
- Cory Magel

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Offline pastaav

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Re: D&D 5E and similarities with RM and HARP
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2012, 01:12:50 AM »
I think Fatepoints would the more interesting contender if we are speaking innovation in Channeling Companion.

If we are speaking about the core system then the Armslaw tables is pretty much the major innovation of RM. Followed by the spell system that I also think is pretty impressive.
/Pa Staav

Offline providence13

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Re: D&D 5E and similarities with RM and HARP
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2012, 11:00:21 AM »
Good ideas.
Corey: Thanks again for a useful RM book.
Yeah, the way Spec Priests are handled is way better than old D&D (1.5 to 2nd ed is where we stopped.)

In fact, converting a custom Greyhawk to RM allows more detailed, fleshed out Priest ( vs bland D&D) because of the book.  :)

pastaav: I always thought Fate/Corruption Points could also be used as Luck points; whatever ratio works for each GM's game. I do use Fate Points with a minor impact on the game, but don't use Luck. Just thought the rules could be compatible.

Arms Law (and Spell Law) is definitive RM. The Armory does have slightly different mechanics that turned my players off.
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Offline markc

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Re: D&D 5E and similarities with RM and HARP
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2012, 02:39:35 PM »
The Armory does have slightly different mechanics that turned my players off.


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Offline Wolfhound

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Re: D&D 5E and similarities with RM and HARP
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2012, 08:55:13 PM »
Cory brings up several good points there.  Rolemaster offers more flexible variety and the Gm has options to tweak as needed to meet his setting and groups needs.  The Channeling Companion was meant (at least my understanding at the time) to help provide some guidance on how to customize the channeling realm and professions to meet those needs.

Don't know if you remember back when you were working on Channeling Companion, Cory, but you had I had a couple of discussions about such things as I was already doing this within my setting also.  At that time you were the only other person I had heard about that was doing anything similar.  Unfortunately I wasn't able to provide much useful info as what I did was simply modify the costs and base lists to fit what I pictured for each "profession" within each religion. 

As an example, Cory mentioned the "Anti-Paladin", there was something similar (but yet not what most people would expect) to this that exists within my setting.  They are called "Paladins of Death", however they are not evil like most people assume upon hearing the name, but rather within my setting, there are several different religions, each with their own sets of dieties (some are actually mono-theistic and believe that their god is the only one that exists, while there are others that include a large number of gods that all interact and have certain "sphere's of influence" if you will).  However, when I was a senior in high school and was in the early stages of pulling together all these ideas for this setting, and was thinking about having multiple regions (as that was one of the things I hated about the D&D games that I had been in was each world had their own sets of deities and you had to choose one from that world, at least that was how the GM's that I knew at the time handled it), I was also working part-time for a funeral home and that got me thinking about death and many of the legends and concepts behind it, as well as the mythology behind undead.  This in turn got me thinking that if there was an ultimate overseer of everyone once they passed away, that this being would not take kindly to spirits/souls of the dead being stolen away or prevented from making their way to whatever dimension/existence/whatever that he/she was overseer of.  Thus the idea hit me that "Death" (a.k.a. "The Grim Reaper" (I was also a fan of Blue Oyster Cult and Led Zeppelin as well as other similar rock bands)) would likely have his own followers who dedicated their lives to destroying undead and sending restless spirits on their way to wherever it is they needed to go.  And that these followers would need to have skills related to both combat and channeling, thus the idea behind the "Paladin's of Death" concept that I developed back in the mid 1980's for my setting. 

Likewise there were dozens of other situations where priests of various deities within my setting should have base lists that differed from the standard Cleric base lists lists, and likewise I did something similar with the creation of other "Orders" of Paladins as well as variations on Rangers; again very similar to what Cory was talking about. 

As frankly D&D just did not do a very good job with these things in my opinion (as well as in many other ways where it was too limiting or not flexible enough), thus the reason I made the change to Rolemaster back in the early 1980's, and never looked back. 

Every purchase I've made of a D&D product in the last 28 or so years has been with a very grudgingly attitude, whereas every Rolemaster/Spacemaster purchase I've made has been accompanied by a level of excitement. 

But in short it doesn't surprise me that D&D is trying to become more like RM, as RM has always (at least in my mind) been the pinnacle of RPG systems, or maybe a better way of saying it is that Iron Crown Enterprises had reached the Crowning Mastery point within the RPG industry when they developed Rolemaster.
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Offline Viktyr Gehrig

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Re: D&D 5E and similarities with RM and HARP
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2012, 04:25:11 AM »
I'm liking what I see in the 5e playtest, but it's a very, very different animal from HARP. I'm not even sure it would scratch the same itch-- the level of detail just isn't there.

Offline Elton Robb

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Re: D&D 5E and similarities with RM and HARP
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2012, 12:56:55 PM »
Copying, and making little changes as time goes by, is really how the human race advances.  To run around and say everything must be original only says your self conceited.

This video underscores this point.  5e is borrowing ideas from all editions of D&D, and 3rd Edition borrowed from RM the heaviest. Rolemaster is the best RPG that had been developed from a realism standpoint.  However, Pathfinder and D&D are much more popular.

Although, all the moderately knowledgeable people play Pathfinder and D&D.  And all the really intelligent people play RM.  Based on how people post in these forums, RM has a stronger base with the more Intellectual gamer, and Pathfinder and D&D 3.x attracted the more creative gamer.  4E attracted people that just wanted to sit around the table and stuff chips in their mouths and call themselves intelligent.

GURPS, however, have all the best writers.
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