Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Cyradon => Topic started by: PhillipAEllis on July 05, 2013, 12:16:18 AM
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G'day!
Coming from a background of the study of Classical religions, I am very aware of what are called the Mysteries, sacred initiations and secretive cults of the Greek gods. Most were involved in securing a better deal in the afterlife: the most famous of these was the Eleusinian religion, which was so revered that we know nothing of their secrets, despite the best "efforts" of the Christian Fathers (as with a lot of their writings about paganism, they either lied or pulled stuff out of their own butts). There are some, like the Mysteries of the Cabeiri (ie. Castor and Pollux), which sought protection for sailors, that were concerned with other aspects of life.
What I was wondering was this: is there any scope among the various deities of Cyradon for Mysteries like these, and if so which gods &/or cultures would be most likely to have them? What do you think? What is your opinion on the matter?
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IMHO you have to have somewhat stable society to have these "cults" be active. When you are just trying to stay alive you do not have time for that stuff.
So you would look to more established societies trying to adopt/initiate new members of emerging societies or brother societies asking for help from stable societies.
I guess you could say what section of the world are you talking about?
MDC
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What about the gods of the Mablung (dwarves)? Refering to markc's post, you can exclude Griffons, Rhona, and Arali since they do not worship individual entities. The Gryx and Humans' gods could be good choices too. Maybe the Gryx more than the Humans, since the latter are the invaders (thus like Christians).
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I'll add that to the wish list of product ideas for expanding Cyradon....
A product that fleshes out the religions of Cyradon (and Anias) and if we can incorporate an adventure or two, plus a bunch of plot seeds for others....
Sound good?
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Good idea! For now, they seem a little generic and except for the Gryx, the gods don't have much of an impact on their followers.
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Many years ago one of my favorite setting support books was Faiths & Avatars - and I'm thinking along those same lines, but with a greater focus on the church structure in each faith.
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I'll add that to the wish list of product ideas for expanding Cyradon....
A product that fleshes out the religions of Cyradon (and Anias) and if we can incorporate an adventure or two, plus a bunch of plot seeds for others....
Sound good?
Yes, it sounds very good, Thom. :)
Colour me interested!
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IMHO you have to have somewhat stable society to have these "cults" be active. When you are just trying to stay alive you do not have time for that stuff.
So you would look to more established societies trying to adopt/initiate new members of emerging societies or brother societies asking for help from stable societies.
Among those societies that have been destabilized by disaster, such would be "the old religion" then, no?
Many years ago one of my favorite setting support books was Faiths & Avatars - and I'm thinking along those same lines, but with a greater focus on the church structure in each faith.
I've never heard of F&A, but I like the idea. Church structure is an outgrowth of the philosophy of the religion, so it should vary according to the underlying philosophy. As an obvious example, for a church building dedicated to a War God not to be designed for defense is ludicrous, as is the idea that its local clergy aren't trained as a "mission team" and will respond to threats and/or emergencies as such.
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If I remember right, Faiths & Avatars is a AD&D Forgotten Realms sourcebook.
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Correct - it covered all of the major religions on Faerun (Forgotten Realms). The follow-up was Powers & Pantheons and covered the lesser and demi-gods. For Cyradon we'd likely only need one product to cover the gods across all of the pantheons, their places of worship, their church org structure, and provide info about the powers/abilities/spells that a member of their church can call upon.
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Correct - it covered all of the major religions on Faerun (Forgotten Realms). The follow-up was Powers & Pantheons and covered the lesser and demi-gods. For Cyradon we'd likely only need one product to cover the gods across all of the pantheons, their places of worship, their church org structure, and provide info about the powers/abilities/spells that a member of their church can call upon.
It might also be interesting to include an adventure thread/outline (or even a full scenario) for how the Refugees restart their churches in Belynar (and the other settlements). Are specific rituals required? Perhaps unique materials that the (likely few) refugee priests could not bring with them (the priests salvaged their Holy books but little else).
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Sorry to delay in replying, Mr Man; it is an interesting question that you raise. For example, it brings in questions of whether the deities require hallowed ground, that is, space deliberately set aside and sacnctified to the specific god or gods. and whether their temples required (like the Ancient Greeks) sacred boundaries. It also brings in questions like: what if there are sacred groves to the gods? And how is sacrilege punished?
What are your thoughts?
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I'll add that to the wish list of product ideas for expanding Cyradon....
A product that fleshes out the religions of Cyradon (and Anias) and if we can incorporate an adventure or two, plus a bunch of plot seeds for others....
Sound good?
It would be something I'd love to contribute, coming as I am from a deep interest in the religions of Classical antiquity.
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Sorry to delay in replying, Mr Man; it is an interesting question that you raise. For example, it brings in questions of whether the deities require hallowed ground, that is, space deliberately set aside and sacnctified to the specific god or gods. and whether their temples required (like the Ancient Greeks) sacred boundaries. It also brings in questions like: what if there are sacred groves to the gods? And how is sacrilege punished?
What are your thoughts?
One quick thought - if I recall correctly (and some of this may be actual rules and some my own moulding over the years) Harn (Harnworld) had a neat Piety mechanic where the various daily and special actions of the faithful lead to gains and loss of a Piety point total. Then in times of special need (or perhaps even in rituals or spell casting) those Piety points could be used to request special support from their god. A roll is made and sometimes the God helps outright, sometimes he/she helps but with conditions (do this, sacrifice that, etc.) and sometimes they enact retribution on the petitioner for the affront of pestering them. :)
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Sorry to delay in replying, Mr Man; it is an interesting question that you raise. For example, it brings in questions of whether the deities require hallowed ground, that is, space deliberately set aside and sacnctified to the specific god or gods. and whether their temples required (like the Ancient Greeks) sacred boundaries. It also brings in questions like: what if there are sacred groves to the gods? And how is sacrilege punished?
What are your thoughts?
One of the things I've been exploring elsewhere (on a private sub-forum you're on, Mr. Ellis) is the idea that ceremonies and rituals of "sanctification," "consecration" and "ordination" give worshipers a bonus against being used for "unholy" purposes. If you assume the ritual/ceremony is something that costs DPs to learn and PPs to activate, it's reasonable to assume that there must be some return on that investment, right? So for example, if the Catholic Church regards undead as "unholy," someone who was baptized as a Catholic, confirmed as a Catholic, given the Last Rites before he died and buried in consecrated ground in the church cemetery, should have at least 4 distinct cumulative bonuses vs. being turned into an undead, no?
It gives the cleric and his congregation both a reason to care about such things.
"Sacrilege" can be a very thorny problem indeed. In a world such as ours, where there is no provable source of magic power accompanying religious ritual, "sacrilege" can all too easily become synonymous with "breaking with accepted tradition," "annoying the senior clerics in your local area" or "doing something that is too easily misinterpreted." It's a different story when someone can make a Sense Magic roll and say conclusively that yes, there is Granted mana present, and it is of a unique flavor that identifies it as from the same God as worshiped by the very people screaming "sacrilege!"
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I get where you're going with the ceremonies, etcetera; it reminds me of certain preventative measures that used to be taken when burying suicides, to prevent them from becoming undead. That sort of ritualistic approach to life can be interesting to explore in a game.
Sacrilege can also be defined according to the nature of the "object." For example: say there is a sacred grove, then sacrilege could consist of any act that damages that grove, such as drive-by fireballs, cutting down trees, etcetera. Say a certain coloured bull is sacrificed to a specific god--sacrilege could consist of taking one such beast dedicated to being sacrificed, and not doing so, so that, say, it could be used to breed more cattle with. (If you remember, such an event resulted in the birth of the Minotaur.)
Then there are the depictions of the gods--do you remember the brouhaha when someone lopped off the penises of the Athenian herms?
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One of the things I've been exploring elsewhere (on a private sub-forum you're on, Mr. Ellis) is the idea that ceremonies and rituals of "sanctification," "consecration" and "ordination" give worshipers a bonus against being used for "unholy" purposes. If you assume the ritual/ceremony is something that costs DPs to learn and PPs to activate, it's reasonable to assume that there must be some return on that investment, right? So for example, if the Catholic Church regards undead as "unholy," someone who was baptized as a Catholic, confirmed as a Catholic, given the Last Rites before he died and buried in consecrated ground in the church cemetery, should have at least 4 distinct cumulative bonuses vs. being turned into an undead, no?
It makes me remember about a spell list in one of the RM Companion (1, I think?). The list was called Ceremonies with spells to greate holy water, holy vestments, marriage, burials, etc. Not sure if it made it into the Channeling Companion though. I just like lists like this one, makes for roleplay opportunities.
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IMHO the Ceremonies spell list should be given away free and cheaply.
MDC
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It was in RoCo I, yes, and it included Marriage and Burial and suchlike, however such spells only conferred the approval of the God on the ceremony, and did not list any concrete benefits. I don't think such "Ceremonies" spells should be any cheaper to learn and cast than any other spells... but on the other hand, I think they should confer benefits making them equal in value to other spells, too. I mean okay, a +5, say, vs. being possessed or turned into an undead isn't much... but on the other hand, a single casting confers that bonus for the rest of the target's life, so long as they are active in the caster's religion, and it can be made cumulative with other ceremonies. 4 castings and you get a +20 or so bonus forever. It can add up to a medium powerful advantage.
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IMHO its a terrific utility list that helps define a church and/or organized religion based channeling character. I guess if you are concerned about cost vs. benefit (I never was), make it a half-cost Prosaic list perhaps.
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GrumpyOldFart,
I am most familiar with the list in the RMSS Channeling Comp and I never let the bonuses be conditional on faith, but that is a very interesting twist. If the list was like that I think I would have the bonus be +1% per caster level (like Armsmaster weapon base list) and have a specific number of targets that could be active at one time. I could also see the number of active targets vary by specific assigned duties in the casters faith. IE large church more active targets or longer duration or active even if the target was not so attuned with the deity, etc.
Old Man,
Yes I agree that it is a great way to define a caster in terms of his or her organizational faith if they have an organization. I also thought about having the caster pick from a group of "ceremonies" per 5 ranks so they could be varied from caster to caster.
MDC
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IMHO you have to have somewhat stable society to have these "cults" be active. When you are just trying to stay alive you do not have time for that stuff.
So you would look to more established societies trying to adopt/initiate new members of emerging societies or brother societies asking for help from stable societies.
I disagree, IMHO I believe that in times like these is when the idea of multiple religious sects pop up and thrive. I have studied Western civilization and religion plays a huge part in their history. A large percentage of wars were fought over religious differences. Also in Cyradon's case, there would be some amongst the refugees that did know the secrets or "mysteries" of their perspective faith. It would also give ground for some to come up with new (maybe false) mysteries of their own so they could gain in power and/or have more people under their control, hence corruption in the church. Imagine a society that has a strong religious backbone that goes through many wars and changes (famines, plagues, etc..) were the hierarchy constantly changes, to me that is a recipe for corruption. Mow imagine that corruption is never really discovered and it grows in the faith so much that it becomes part of that faiths doctrine. Man there is so much material in that for adventure seeds. In Cyradon I feel that there would also be a lot of room for religious conflict with each separate faith and sect vying to gain control of the most people if not also trying to become the "state" religion. There are loads of adventure seeds here. And plenty of examples from our own world history to use.
Bruce
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A thought occurs, Cyradon-wise, that the religious nature of the forces that drove the refugees from Tarahir might give rise to schism in the Cyradon religious faithful. Perhaps some had preferred appeasement, others supported the conflict, etc. (Could touch on that when current situation on Anias is addressed in later supplements.)
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I for one would like to see a simple "faith' stat included
as a basic character you begin with a faith stat of zero againts all religions.. (unless you are a cleric). as you do things that favour a gods' interest your faith stat goes up, as you oppose a god you faith stat goes down
You can then take this stat/modifier to affect the outcome of channeling spells.
i.e. a cleric casts a +10 bonus spell on you, since you have a high faith stat with that religion your bonus is now +15.
and vice versa, 2 months ago you foil johnny McEbol_Gods' plan of doom, and killed his evil priests in the process. you now have a negative faith stat for that religion, you meet with one of these clerics who attmpts to bless you (unkowing of your previous actions)
that +10 noe becomes a -5..wow you just got cursed!
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That type of change is unlikely as it would impact the rules of the game, however it can be mirrored with a Bane-like Talent awarded to priests.
Holy Bane = The character gets a bonus of +20 when casting spells or making melee attacks against individuals or groups that have actively opposed their faith. This bonus is used only when knowingly targeting the foes as enemies of the church. If damage is dealt, this allows the attack to ignore damage caps.
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I for one would like to see a simple "faith' stat included
as a basic character you begin with a faith stat of zero againts all religions.. (unless you are a cleric). as you do things that favour a gods' interest your faith stat goes up, as you oppose a god you faith stat goes down
You can then take this stat/modifier to affect the outcome of channeling spells.
i.e. a cleric casts a +10 bonus spell on you, since you have a high faith stat with that religion your bonus is now +15.
and vice versa, 2 months ago you foil johnny McEbol_Gods' plan of doom, and killed his evil priests in the process. you now have a negative faith stat for that religion, you meet with one of these clerics who attmpts to bless you (unkowing of your previous actions)
that +10 noe becomes a -5..wow you just got cursed!
I was toying with a similar idea (also similar to Harn's Piety) where you gained and lost Faith points through your deeds and words. Those points could be spent in prayer and ritual to seek a boon from your god(s).
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One quick thought - if I recall correctly (and some of this may be actual rules and some my own moulding over the years) Harn (Harnworld) had a neat Piety mechanic where the various daily and special actions of the faithful lead to gains and loss of a Piety point total. Then in times of special need (or perhaps even in rituals or spell casting) those Piety points could be used to request special support from their god. A roll is made and sometimes the God helps outright, sometimes he/she helps but with conditions (do this, sacrifice that, etc.) and sometimes they enact retribution on the petitioner for the affront of pestering them. :)
ICE has something similar in the Channeling Companion from RMFRP called Divine Status. I am lucky enough to have a hard copy of the book. The Divine Status rules start on page 15 and cover things like grace points (the more you have the higher your divine status), corruption points (acquired by your sins and distance from your faiths doctrine), temptation, and redemption. The book (like all the spell companions) is a good read and can inspire some great ideas for HARP.
Bruce