Topic: Survival Instinct

[RandalThor]

Arioch, I see that pix and all I can think is "Poop in his hand! Poop in his hand!" from the G-Force promo.

[Arioch]

lol! 

[RandalThor]

The main reason I see this as a problem is because, for whatever reason, the game designers were loathe to grant anything an armor bonus higher than that granted by plate armor. This is where I would make the biggest change.

It is totally OK by me if that Dragon of Kingship's armor bonus was +150 (or even higher) and it had developed Chi Defense for those few cases when it's armor isn't enough. [No, it doesn't mean that if you kill the dragon and take it's scales you will be able to have armor that gives you a +150 armor bonus. But it does make the best plate armor and takes to enchantment better.]

As for things like undead and supernatural creatures, the higher armor bonus reflects their supernatural toughness protecting them from harm. In this way (as well as the dragon above) slaying weapons could just negate the high armor bonus to increase their effectiveness against the target creature. You may even be able to get rid of an entire attack table that way.

[RandalThor]

As for creatures & animals sacrificing OB for DB (i.e., "parrying") I think, when weapons are involved, the unarmed should only get a 1/2 bonus to DB. Example: The jaguar "parries" using 40 OB, which grants it +20 DB. This is to reflect that you can't deflect weapons with naked flesh and expect to come away unharmed. Of course, those supernatural creatures with supernatural toughness could be an exception.

Then again, to reflect their wild natures, this could be all moot. Keep the one-for-one to showcase their Survival Instincts.

[Thom @ ICE]

The main reason I see this as a problem is because, for whatever reason, the game designers were loathe to grant anything an armor bonus higher than that granted by plate armor. This is where I would make the biggest change.

It is totally OK by me if that Dragon of Kingship's armor bonus was +150 (or even higher) and it had developed Chi Defense for those few cases when it's armor isn't enough. [No, it doesn't mean that if you kill the dragon and take it's scales you will be able to have armor that gives you a +150 armor bonus. But it does make the best plate armor and takes to enchantment better.]

As for things like undead and supernatural creatures, the higher armor bonus reflects their supernatural toughness protecting them from harm. In this way (as well as the dragon above) slaying weapons could just negate the high armor bonus to increase their effectiveness against the target creature. You may even be able to get rid of an entire attack table that way.

Agreed 100% on the Dragon and the Armor comments.

For Undead I have no problem with Tough Hide being applied, and then I would also create a new ability related to the fact that they do not feel pain and that their internal organs are not critical for them. Definitely concepts like eliminating Bleed should be applied instead of a generic and unexplained ability called "Survival Instinct".  There are some undead who have been historically described as immune to mundane weapons or weapons not made with specific materials. These would be the equivalent of racial abilities - and to answer some of the comments earlier (blood talents and playing undead PCs) - in this case the PC could gain a blood talent related to being undead and from there continue to add additional racial abilities of the undead.

Dragons gain great armor DB from their scales and it would then be pretty obvious that you can't make dragon scale armor without great magic because you can't cut it or fashion it properly. If you did get it specially made for you somehow it may grant +150 bonus DB but you had better plan to pay someone a huge treasure for it - but remember that a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link and a well placed dagger strike can cut loose armor, and there are lots of attacks that armor DB does not help against.  Once the armored individual is on the ground and trying to fight off multiple foes - he's a dead man regardless of whatever armor he may be wearing.

As for animals and their "parry" ability - keep in mind that they do not have "naked flesh" they have +20 Tough Hide - maybe you allow them to use up to +20 in 1:1 parry and then use the 1/2 beyond that. This would be able to work then for anything with Tough Hide bonuses (including dragons, zombies, giant ants, etc.)

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Guys, write up your ideas as articles and submit them for publication in HARPer's Bazaar.

Remember, ICE is accepting submissions...

 

[Marc R]

I'd think the major factor, armor/toughness wise, would relate to size too.

Make a full set of armor out of Whale hide. . . .it's hide armor. . .

Hit you with a bat, it's just as good as cow hide armor. . .

But if you hit a whale in the side with a bat, it barely notices. . . .it's not the armor, its the 2' thick layer of blubber under the skin that acts like super-thick padding. . .

You'd need 2' of cotton padding under your hide armor to match the "Armor" effect of the hide when it's on the whale, since I'd assume you're not wearing the 2' thick layer of blubber also.

There's also the fact, that on the animal, the hide is a seamless, complete layer, not sewn together sections.

So I don't think there's much worry of thinking you could just rip +150 DB dragon hide off a dragon and wear it as +150 DB armor. . . .on the dragon it's integrated with the fat and muscle layers perfectly, melds to the body surface perfectly, each scale is perfectly anchored and integrated with the other scales, yet the hide has a degree of play over the body interior allowed by the subdermal connection layer that no armor underpadding can match.

[Thom @ ICE]

All excellent points. Thanks. I wasn't sure what those other aspects were, but you captured them well.

[RandalThor]

For Undead I have no problem with Tough Hide being applied, and then I would also create a new ability related to the fact that they do not feel pain and that their internal organs are not critical for them. Definitely concepts like eliminating Bleed should be applied instead of a generic and unexplained ability called "Survival Instinct".  There are some undead who have been historically described as immune to mundane weapons or weapons not made with specific materials. These would be the equivalent of racial abilities - and to answer some of the comments earlier (blood talents and playing undead PCs) - in this case the PC could gain a blood talent related to being undead and from there continue to add additional racial abilities of the undead.

To me the main reason Undead were so scary in RM/HARP is because they are treated as every combatant in DnD are treated: no affect until destroyed. You don't stun them. They don't bleed. Many of the weaknesses of living creatures they don't possess, so they are 100% combat effective until destroyed - unless you have something that specifically affects undead. That has always been my take on them.

I'd think the major factor, armor/toughness wise, would relate to size too.

But if you hit a whale in the side with a bat, it barely notices. . . .it's not the armor, its the 2' thick layer of blubber under the skin that acts like super-thick padding. . ..

The size part is the real big deal. I mean many whales can get to be 100 tons! Try punching that and having any real effect.

So I don't think there's much worry of thinking you could just rip +150 DB dragon hide off a dragon and wear it as +150 DB armor. . . .on the dragon it's integrated with the fat and muscle layers perfectly, melds to the body surface perfectly, each scale is perfectly anchored and integrated with the other scales, yet the hide has a degree of play over the body interior allowed by the subdermal connection layer that no armor underpadding can match.

(Not to mention the inherent magical nature of dragons combining all those elements together and strengthening them.)

But I think that was a consideration - whether or not it actually is a problem, the game designers saw it as a possible problem. (I think.)

[RandalThor]

As for animals and their "parry" ability - keep in mind that they do not have "naked flesh" they have +20 Tough Hide - maybe you allow them to use up to +20 in 1:1 parry and then use the 1/2 beyond that. This would be able to work then for anything with Tough Hide bonuses (including dragons, zombies, giant ants, etc.)

The term "parry" has not sat well with me from the beginning*. It works just fine when you are talking about a couple of warriors facing each other with crossed swords (or axes, or spears, etc.) but is very much a misnomer when dealing with unarmed and animals/creatures. For the most part, an animal will dodge your attacks not parry it, and just having a short sentence in the description of parry saying that it can also stand for dodging doesn't cut it (with me).

I would prefer we call it Defensive Maneuvering (or something similar) and have modifiers & guidelines for the different methods. Example: Fighter A is using a longsword & shield, while Fighter B is actually a Monk and is unarmed. Fighter The Fighter can use 1:1 OB to DB for his Defensive Maneuvering, while the Monk may be limited to 2:1, respectively because he doesn't have the option to parry, he must only dodge, therefore one method of defense is denied to him. The default is 1:1 with changes due to the situation. If the Monk had special metal bracers and/or specialized parrying training he might also have the 1:1 ratio.


*As someone who like the written word, I think using correct terminology is important - even if I do mess up some times - - I mean to say the right correct thing so that I can be understood with minimal decoding.

[Marc R]

AFAIK the term parry includes parrying, blocking, and your overall defensive posturing, just like your OB would reflect not only weapon movement, but things like body positioning and movement. (The fact that charging gives an OB bonus is an example of this logic.)

Parry includes dodging and footwork. . .I'd always assumed that the RM 1/2 reduction to parry effect for the unarmed vs weapons reflected the fact that you could dodge and use footwork, but not the parry or block elements included in the overall logic.

Frankly the parry OB/DB split in my mind has always been Overall Combat Posture Offensive/Defensive.

[Thom @ ICE]

I don't think he disagrees with what is included, but feels the name is misleading and should be revised

[Marc R]

I agree, and laid my internal thought for what it is on the last line of my post. . .it's the defensive element of your overall combat posture. . . parry is easier to say and write though.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

You'd need 2' of cotton padding under your hide armor to match the "Armor" effect of the hide when it's on the whale, since I'd assume you're not wearing the 2' thick layer of blubber also.

For some reason the above quote made me think of this scene from the Woody Allen movie, Sleeper:

[RandalThor]

HI-larry-us!! 

[RandalThor]

I don't think he disagrees with what is included, but feels the name is misleading and should be revised

Correct. I just like to avoid as much confusion as possible (and to help me build the image in my head as I play) more correct terms should be employed. If you aren't actually parrying with something, don't say parry.

. . . parry is easier to say and write though.

Also correct. Though I think Defense Maneuver isn't all that much more difficult..  

[Marc R]

well, block and parry are part of it. . .defensive posture might be closer to specific correctness (I too like to use english as is unless jargon is needed).

[jasonbrisbane]

On a side note,,, I HAVE created a new undead monster....


Hint... think Skeleton with each bone encased in adamantine......

Once the players encounter it I will release it to the downloads section....

[Thom @ ICE]

Why not send it in for a future issue of The Guild Companion also?
I'm pretty anxious to see that....

[jasonbrisbane]

I have a second ponster but cant rememeber what it was off the top of my head.


I DO rememebr a THird undead monster....

(click to show/hide)

A Harp version of the DND monster "Slaymate"