Topic: How would you fix the Ranger?

[markc]

 I guess you could cross the Arms Master and the Ranger to make what you want if you wanted a Ment Ranger.

MDC

[Nders]

You could also just allow the bless and prayer spells on Inner walls to apply their bonus to OB. And if you think the bonuses to OB or DB are too low compared to the spells of other classes, merely add 5 to the effect of each of them i.e. let bless I give +10 bonus to DB, OB and maneuvers

[Cory Magel]

Slightly off-topic, but this has always bothered me.  I believe that Rangers were stuffed into the realm of Channeling just because their base lists have so much in common with Animists.  There is nothing intrinsic to the profession which indicates a need for divine sponsorship.

We actually reasoned that the Ranger is using "Channeling" from the power of the forest (or whatever he's ranger of) in the way that a god derives power from its followers.  This has a good and bad result with the Ranger... Good, no one looking over his shoulder to make sure he's behaving. Bad, no god to help him when the need arises.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

For reasons I explain in this thread, I created a spell list manipulating plants. While the Ranger would need an adjustment in his Directed Spell cost to make full use of the list, I think it can be used in place of one of his base spell lists (player's choice?), as a way to make him more "interesting" to consider as a playing profession, and more "balanced" with other semi-spell users. Not using it that way in my game (since the list is a Forest Mage base list) but GMs may be interested so I post here about the matter.

[kaptain o]

I like Rasyr's improved ranger (EA7), for stats and skills, and a varied spell selection.

Are the EA's compatible with RMSS/RMFRP or are they just for the new RMC/RMX games?

Specifically is the improved ranger article/class made for RMSS/RMFRP?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

They are for RMC/RMX, but I am sure that you could take the information provided and translate it to RMFRP.

The two major changes would be changes to some skill costs, and a larger selection of spell lists from which the Ranger's Base Lists are drawn.

[ToM]

Don't know if it can help, but I wrote down three new Ranger Base lists, based on EA's Pathfinder's one and some other material.
They can be found on TGC archives for the month of may 2010.

[kaptain o]

Don't know if it can help, but I wrote down three new Ranger Base lists, based on EA's Pathfinder's one and some other material.
They can be found on TGC archives for the month of may 2010.

They look really good, but I think I'll have a hard time convincing my GM to allow then since a) they aren't official and b) they look really good!

I kinda got shoehorned into playing a Ranger by the GM and looking at the class they just seem a little lacking.

Someone else earlier in the thread mentioned an alternate ranger in the Channelling Companion?  That's one of the books I own but I don't recall an alternate ranger profession in there - I'll check when I get home I guess.

[markc]

 Also look at the Wyrd Bow in the Guild Companion archives as it is a good list for a ranger to have.
MDC

[kaptain o]

Those spells seem pretty good, perhaps too good

Also it's listed as being for RM2, is that compatible with RMSS/RMFRP?

[markc]

Those spells seem pretty good, perhaps too good

Also it's listed as being for RM2, is that compatible with RMSS/RMFRP?

 Yes I have used it in my RMSS game fine. That is not true of all RM 2 spells though.


 IMO it's power level makes up for some of the Rangers non-power in their other spell lists. I also hate the animals summoning spell list with a passion. Because it says the animal is friendly to you but if you are surrounded by people it does not know or are not influenced by the spell then IMO it will just run away.
 I often also allow the Ranger to have Beast Mastery as a Base Spell List from the Mentalism Comp. This is not as strong an OB list but is still woodsman based. Note it also ha some drawbacks though so read the list before just jumping on it. Like what do you do with your wolf when in town or meeting the town council.


MDC

[jolt]

I think part of the problem comes from the early days of RM where it was decided, for whatever reason, that if a class was a spellcaster then you had to have six base lists.  So they had to come up with enough spells for all six lists, even if not that many were needed, and as a result you have weak and/or unnecessary lists.

Look at the Arachnemancer TP: one spell list.  That's all that's really needed.  You could probably come up with enough interesting Spider type spells for two or three lists but six?  You'd just be creating filler spells.  A lot of semi-spell users already feel this way to me.  A better talent system would remove the need for some semi-spell users to require spells at all.  I have trouble envisioning Aragorn having to cast Herb Lore VI to try and find some athelas in the wild.  In fact, I find the concept ridiculous.  The Monk is just as bad.  Anytime he wants to do any of his wuxia/wire-fu he has to cast a spell.  Whenever I look at an RM Monk all I can think of is the anime Naruto; and that isn't a good thing.

The semi-spell user is great for some things but other classes got shoe-horned into it that just don't fit as well and would have been better served with a stronger talent system or being made into a TP.  YMMV.

jolt

[ToM]

I think part of the problem comes from the early days of RM where it was decided, for whatever reason, that if a class was a spellcaster then you had to have six base lists.  So they had to come up with enough spells for all six lists, even if not that many were needed, and as a result you have weak and/or unnecessary lists.

Look at the Arachnemancer TP: one spell list.  That's all that's really needed.  You could probably come up with enough interesting Spider type spells for two or three lists but six?  You'd just be creating filler spells.  A lot of semi-spell users already feel this way to me.  A better talent system would remove the need for some semi-spell users to require spells at all.  I have trouble envisioning Aragorn having to cast Herb Lore VI to try and find some athelas in the wild.  In fact, I find the concept ridiculous.  The Monk is just as bad.  Anytime he wants to do any of his wuxia/wire-fu he has to cast a spell.  Whenever I look at an RM Monk all I can think of is the anime Naruto; and that isn't a good thing.

The semi-spell user is great for some things but other classes got shoe-horned into it that just don't fit as well and would have been better served with a stronger talent system or being made into a TP.  YMMV.

jolt

BIG quote. Completely agreed.

[rdanhenry]

Actually, semi-spell-users originally had only five base lists.

As for "spells", remember that this is a technical game term and does not necessarily imply "casting a spell" in a more limited common-language sense. When Obi-wan Kenobi uses the Jedi Mind Trick to get past the stormtroopers searching for R2-D2, his actions are perfectly modeled as a Rolemaster spell (he fulfills all the requirements for 'automatic' Essence casting, including speaking aloud ["These are not the droids you're looking for."] and not only has free hands, he makes a hand gesture), yet if you think of a spell in "chanting (possibly bad or other-universe analog) Latin and throwing bizarre demon gang signs while burning colored powders" terms, this is likely not to be considered spell-casting. Aragorn fits quite neatly into the Rolemaster Ranger... if you change his Realm to Mentalism. (I think the biggest mistake in MERP was dropping the Mentalism realm rather than Channeling.)

Monks frequently make vocalizations and hand gestures before activating impressive abilities. In anime these are often silly, but even serious kung fu movies have characters calling out their moves ("Taste my Lethal Axe Fist!") and certainly there is plenty of posing with open hands.

Just because something is a "spell" in game terms doesn't mean a casual observer will recognize it as such or even that the caster will think of his abilities in those terms.

[VladD]

@ rdanhenry
I always looked upon the spells of semi spell users as abilities or extra set of skills for that profession. Most of them are pretty close to the character and they mimic, although some in the extreme, skills from the normal world.

So when Aragorn is looks for a path he isn't chanting to the gods, he just sets out in to the wilderness, performs a so-called ritual search and Eru (his god) grants him to find the route to that place, if he is looking for it in the right direction and expends 5 PP.

The bard sings and his/ her mind focuses on the song, while captivating one or two from the audience with his/ her eyes, making them forget everything around them. 4 and 2 PP over 2 rounds would be the cost.

The Dabbler begins to creep and move slowly as he uses his stealth to stay out of the hands of his pursuers. His steps are cloaked in silence from now on, and he writes off 4 PP.

This is not true for all spells (especially the paladin lists have some supernatural stuff happening).
It is just how the world reacts to these effects and how the player likes to implement them.

Lastly I would like to say something on the ranger's behalf since that would on topic. It is not a weak class, just because it doesn't have any of the other semi spell users' attack lists. It has so many other cool things going for it, as long as he is in the wilderness. He is more like a Swiss army knife than a sword. More of a hunting rifle than a SAW249. As long as the party is in the wilderness he is their Ray Mears, but this goes for other classes as well. The Paladin is also just fighter when not fighting Demons, the Dabbler without things to break in is just another guy who used up a lot of DevP on useless spells.
It is just that fighting Demons and Opening treasure chests is seen as a more powerful build, but a good GM will make a party suffer for disdaining a ranger by making them cross vast plains or forests.

[yammahoper]

In a wilderness setting i have seen a ranger dominate the party, particularly in combat.

Those spells make them walking predators, nearly impossible to see or detect.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

I suppose that you could expand the number of lists that a Ranger (or other Semi-s) considers to be "Base" lists and have them cost the same in DP as the base lists, but restrict those other lists to "open/closed" lists from whatever realm your heart desired for that profession (Much the same way that Pure Spell users can select an additional 4 lists from their realm....)

Having tried Rangers several times, it is expecation/preconception that causes the problem. Ranger spell lists are expensive, functional but with few combat applications, which will always make them weak in melee.

As to which realm...humm. I'd probably stick with channelling, though there is a case for any of them depending upon the perception of the world.

[jolt]

Monks frequently make vocalizations and hand gestures before activating impressive abilities. In anime these are often silly, but even serious kung fu movies have characters calling out their moves ("Taste my Lethal Axe Fist!") and certainly there is plenty of posing with open hands.

That's true but in such case the rest of the world tends to "freeze" while so-and-so is shouting out the name of his maneuver; effectively taking no time to actually do.  Spellcasting takes up time making it, IMO, a clumsy mechanic for certain character effects which should really take little, if any, time.  Aragorn shouldn't need to cast a spell to figure out, "Oh wait, this isn't athelas it's athelis".

Just because something is a "spell" in game terms doesn't mean a casual observer will recognize it as such or even that the caster will think of his abilities in those terms.

If the ability is going to be affected by equipment and armor like a spell, will detect like a spell, will be dispelled like a spell and is observable like a spell, then it's a spell.  I also would never allow a person to not recognise what a Ranger or Monk is doing because "it isn't really a spell".  That opens too big a can of worms, IMO.

Again, I think a solid talent system combined with TP's would simulate a lot of the character types better than they currently do.  YMMV.

jolt