Topic: Stun Cloud / Force Wave critical resolution

[ArchonOfBattle]

Hello all

I'm having trouble figuring out how to determine what critical was made for these kind of spells. I mean, they are not direct attack resisted by DB like Elemental Ball/Bolt. But they don't have the way to roll critical specified the way attack spells like Shock (roll 1D100-20).

So how do I determine critical received? Do I use the main roll, even though that was a resistance determination roll and not a DB opposed roll? Or is it just random damage capped to attack size like Shock?

Best regards,

Søren

[Thom @ ICE]

Stun Cloud
The spell is an attack spell with RR Magic.
* Spellcaster rolls OE and adds spell casting bonus. Consult the RR column on the maneuver table to determine the target for resistance.
* Individual being cast at then rolls RR check adding their RR Magic bonus. If they exceed the Target then they resisted the spell.
* If Individual failed to resist, then take the original spellcaster OE roll, and use it on the Elect Crit chart for Medium to determine damage from that spell.
* Repeat these steps each round (rds 3-4 use Small and rds 5-6 use Tiny)

Despite 6 rounds of impact, it only requires 1 initial spellcasting action - though I would re-roll the impact each round (and allow for RR checks each round).  Note that you can also simply exit the cloud to avoid future round impacts.  DB does not apply in any case.

Not sure about Force Wave as I can't find it.


2 rds Med Electric
2 rds Small Electric
2 rds Tiny Electric

[ZuS]

Force Wave is in The Codex, page 21. I posted the text below - might want to read spell text before answering.

Just to be 100% certain of what you are saying, TJ: When determining the critical score on Impact Critical Table, you do NOT add spellcasting skill to the result, but ONLY use the original dice roll? So if you only scale the attack to do Tiny critical, your result on the Impact Critical Table is equal to 1d100-20 capped at 80?

FORCE WAVE*
PP COST: 6
RANGE: Self
DURATION: —
SPELL TYPE: Attack
RR: MAGIC
SPHERES: Adventurer, Mage
DESCRIPTION: This spell causes a wave of kinetic force to
expand outwards from the caster. This wave is in the
form of a curved wall of kinetic energy that starts just in
front of the caster, covering a 60 degree arc. It rapidly
expands outwards to a range of 10'. All those caught by
the arc must make a Magic-based Resistance Roll or be
forced back to the outer range of the effect.
SCALING OPTIONS:
Increase Wave (per additional 60 degrees) +4 PP
Increase Force (per additional 10') +6 PP
Does Tiny Impact Critical +4 PP
Increase Impact Critical Size by 1 +4 PP

[Thom @ ICE]

Sorry - my error in how I wrote it...
When I said, use the original OE spellcaster roll, my intent was to include the bonus also.  Result still gets the damage size adjustment and the damage cap.

For Codex - No damage is applied.
Roll spellcasting OE roll, add the bonus and set the RR target.
Defender rolls their resistance based upon the established target.
If they succeed they are able to allow the wall to pass through them.
If they fail, the wall physically pushes them backwards to the range of effect - but no damage is suffered and if they get to a point where they can not move further back (wall, etc.) then they simply stop with their back to the wall. If there is a cliff behind them, they move back and fall....

[ZuS]

Hej again TJ

Don't mean to be tedious about this, but if you read the bottom scale of the spell Force Wave, it most definitely allows Impact Critical damage. It's not a wall, but an attack that can be scaled to do Impact Critical damage. So once again, when resolving this damage, we still apply roll+skill with usual cap and size mods, right?

[Thom @ ICE]

Correct - you can scale it to allow criticals, base spell does not include damage. I did not read down to the scaling....
Yes, that is correct. Roll + Skill with size adjust and damage cap

Don't forget the penalties associated with scaling, etc. those get considered also.

[ZuS]

Awesome, tnx for info.

[ArchonOfBattle]

Wait a minute: damage - assuming a failed RR roll - is determined by original roll with no subtractions except casting modifiers? No DB, no nothing?
Would that not mean that an accomplished caster will always cap?

Let's put some numbers on this:
Assume 4th level Elementalist with Eloquence talent, maxed Stun Cloud skill (15 rnks) and +21 to the skill from the relevant stats using a Focus Item to cast spells.
This gives a total skill bonus of 60 (Ranks) + 21 (Stats) + 25 (Eloquence) + 5 (Focus Item) = 111
This Elementalist casts an unscaled Stun Cloud in 1 round. That's a 5 PP spell, so no casting modifiers applies. Damage is Medium Electricity crit on the first round (assume target moves out of cloud after that).
Assume the minimum successful roll of 06.

This would give a total casting roll of 117. A look at the RR column of Maneuver Table yields the RR to beat as 130. Now, if the target fails his/her RR, the result would be a 100 Elec. crit. - assuming target isn't protected by Elemental Protections or Elemental Resistance. Moreover the result would always be a 100 Elec. crit on any successful unresisted casting.

Thanks a lot for the replies and sorry to keep digging... it's just that I want to be sure, since it a world of difference regarding how powerful the spell is  

[Pat]

This is just my opinion but I'd probably rule one of 2 ways if a person fails their RR roll to the scaled spell.
1) The caster only gets the roll and does not get the spell bonus (so if the caster rolled 67 and gets -20 for the tiny, the result would be a 47 crit.)
2) All bonuses are calculated but since it's now an elemental attack, then normal DB is applied. (So if the attack is 117, then the defenders DB is applied as normal. If it is a cloud or ball effect however, then there is no shield bonus applied.)

I'd probably take option 2.

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

If the caster is allowed to add skill bonus to a crit roll, then the victims should be allowed to claim DB (to avoid guaranteed max success). Conversely if it is a second independent roll with no bonuses, then the victims should not be claiming DB (to avoid reducing the result to pointlessness)

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

[orule]
Force Wave -- if scaled up to do a critical (if the target fails his RR), then the critical is rolled separately. No adjustments are made to the critical roll, except for size.

The caster's skill with the spell only applies to the casting of the spell, not to determining the additional effects of it. The RR is the counter to the caster's skill, and so his skill is NOT used in making the critical roll.

The target of such spells (which have RRs and do critical damage), do not receive any DB against the critical roll. Thier armor will provide no benefit (hence the RR results instead of a OB/DB resolution).
[/orule]

The process is as follows

Caster rolls and adds in his skill bonus for the spell.

Look up result on Maneuver Table, result is applied to target's RR.

Target makes RR (applying adjustment from caster's roll).

If RR successful, spell is over, no further effect.
If RR failed, then effects are applied. If the effect includes a critical (i.e. a Tiny Impact critical), then the caster has to roll for the critical (1d100-20). This critical roll is NOT the same as the casting roll.


That help clear things up?

[ZuS]

Official ruling certainly makes it clear as day. This makes the power of the spell significantly low compared to spells like Fear, Sleep or Force Bands, since you basically have a choice between a negative OB and an extreme cost of casting and unlikely breaking of the target's RR. This is especially the case once you use the Scope(targets) talent with the three mentioned spells and can take out 2 opponents without as much as compromizing a single point of attack.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Well, the primary purpose of Force Wave isn't to hurt others. It's main purpose is to basically clear a path. The ability to do a critical and then increase the severity of that critical is a secondary aspect of the spell.

And yes, some spells ARE better than others - at least in certain situations....


And don't forget, Force Wave is an instantaneous spell where those others are not.

And Force Wave is also primarily a semi-spell user's spell (i.e. meant to be slightly less powerful), its inclusion into the Mage Sphere is only secondary.

[Thom @ ICE]

Official ruling certainly makes it clear as day. This makes the power of the spell significantly low compared to spells like Fear, Sleep or Force Bands, since you basically have a choice between a negative OB and an extreme cost of casting and unlikely breaking of the target's RR. This is especially the case once you use the Scope(targets) talent with the three mentioned spells and can take out 2 opponents without as much as compromizing a single point of attack.

My apologies for the misdirection previously. I guess I need to revise my own gaming rule on this one.

[ArchonOfBattle]

No problem TJones, all input was appreciated :-D

More spells affected by this:
Fissure
Tremors
Vacuum

[Mungo]

One question: if I cast Force Wave to move away this fighter who is about to attack me, what penalty would he get to his attack this round as he first has to bridge the 10' I pushed him back and as he most likely should be a bit surprised about it.

BR Juergen

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

One question: if I cast Force Wave to move away this fighter who is about to attack me, what penalty would he get to his attack this round as he first has to bridge the 10' I pushed him back and as he most likely should be a bit surprised about it.

Well, he would have to move the 10', so there is the modifier for that. And it is up to the GM to determine whether or not he is surprised, and if he is, then he gets the standard modification for it (IIRC, that is an initiative mod, not an OB mod).

In short, it depends up the situation and how the spell is used. There is no way to say with certainty that it will cause a mod of xx, because there might be other conditions that affect the situation as well.

Now, if the Fighter had already declared his attack, and then you used the instantaneous spell to force him away, I would likely rule that that ruined his attack for the round, period. And that he would not get to attack again until the next round.

[Mungo]

Now, if the Fighter had already declared his attack, and then you used the instantaneous spell to force him away, I would likely rule that that ruined his attack for the round, period. And that he would not get to attack again until the next round.

Ok so to summarize:
 
We declare actions - because the fighter is so close the mage says he casts Force Wave. If Mage wins initiative -> fighter loses attack. If mage is second: mage gets hit (or not), fighter is moved away, what happens next round is subject to GM.

Understood correctly?

Background of the question is that I am playing a very fast mage (base initiative 25 - 30) and want to check whether it makes sense for me to invest in this spell when I gain next level.

On the other hand: if I am that fast and hit him squarely with my +105OB water bolt, it might have a more permanent effect....

BR Juergen

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Force Wave or Water Bolt? I guess it depends on how badly you want to hurt him...

 

[Mungo]

Very badly.