Topic: Martial Law: Using a Madu

[jasonbrisbane]

Thanks Rasyr, Thats what I was alluding to.

The Madu is a CULTURAL weapon and thus rare in the sense of the rest of the world.

In a Cyradon sense (where we RP), I would say that it can only be used by a certain culture (ie Nomadic, Rural or GM Discretion). In this way, not everyone can use the weapon (unless they suffer the -10 penalty for being untrained in the weapon or wield it for a full week to become accustomed to it. (Well, This makes sense as we are making characters again after the TPK)

I think that Martial law gives you different weapons and it is up to the GM to determine whether the weapons can be used in their campaign.


Personally, I don't see the attacker as being able to "catch the opponents weapon on my shield". I see it as being an obstacle to the attacker being able to slide his weapon over the top of the other to reach to the attacker, thus it represents a Automatic DB bonus if your at least trying to defend somehow(ie partial parry). I see it as thus:

An attacker uses a Madu as a spear (1 hand Thrusting) to attack whilst presenting the shield side outwards (+10 OB to Parry, thus getting a total of +20DB). As the defender tries to counterattack, his sword slides over the madu spearhead towards the attackers body where  it is prevented from reaching the attacker by the shield in the middle of the weapon.

So if you don't parry, you don't get the DB bonus. Also remember that certain combat actions are full round actions and cant be combined with other actions. IIRC you cant partial parry whilst power attacking, for example. As such the attacker will only be partial parrying (or Full Parrying) to get the +10DB bonus. Otherwise they forego the Db bonus to attempt to Power attack, or to do other combat actions. So in this regard it cant be used as a "Super-weapon".

And technically you don't "use Shield" as part of an action as you don't use Shield Training to use the weapon.
In the same way you don't use Sai to attack, Use Sai to Parry and Use Sai to get the extra DB bonus. (Wow, using three Sai in one hand in 2 seconds !? LOL!)
You still have to sacrifice something to get the bonus. You cant full attack and get a DB bonus. (unless it was a magical item).

This was why I asked Rasyr if you needed to have the Shield Training Talent to use the weapon to begin with (See first Post).
Otherwise, yes, I would have agreed with you.

[Pat]

Ohhhhh where to start.......

Thanks Rasyr, Thats what I was alluding to.

The Madu is a CULTURAL weapon and thus rare in the sense of the rest of the world.

In a Cyradon sense (where we RP), I would say that it can only be used by a certain culture (ie Nomadic, Rural or GM Discretion). In this way, not everyone can use the weapon (unless they suffer the -10 penalty for being untrained in the weapon or wield it for a full week to become accustomed to it.

Nowhere in Martial Law does it say that these new weapons (including the Madu) are rare or cultural weapons. These are just (at best) assumptions made by various people. If anyone can find me where it says that these weapons are rare or cultural please, o please tell me what page it's on.

Also, what are the rules for rare or cultural weapons? If a weapon is deemed cultural who determines what culture it relates to? Should there be an extra table for all new weapons saying, for instance, Culure - Deep Warrens or Cultural - Rural. This would be necessary for all new weapons not just the ones that give PC's bonuses for nothing.

And, if it's considered rare, what does rare mean? You need to be born in a certain location to find it? Or when you create your character you roll 1-100 and if you get 25 or less you've found one?

An attacker uses a Madu as a spear (1 hand Thrusting) to attack whilst presenting the shield side outwards (+10 OB to Parry, thus getting a total of +20DB). As the defender tries to counterattack, his sword slides over the madu spearhead towards the attackers body where  it is prevented from reaching the attacker by the shield in the middle of the weapon.

I can't agree with this. A shield by it's very design and function is made to block an attack. To say it's design is to simply impede another attacker does not make sense. Especially for something that gives +10 DB.

As you said "An attacker uses a Madu as a spear (1 hand Thrusting) to attack whilst presenting the shield side outwards ." Now I'm assuming that both attacker attacker and defender are right handed (since statistically this would be most likely) if the Madu weilder had the shield facing outwards (to his right), the attack from the foe would not even touch the shield as it would come in (most likely) from the left. (The foe's right hand would be the Madu defender's left side.) So why a +10 DB bonus?

So if you don't parry, you don't get the DB bonus. Also remember that certain combat actions are full round actions and cant be combined with other actions. IIRC you cant partial parry whilst power attacking, for example. As such the attacker will only be partial parrying (or Full Parrying) to get the +10DB bonus. Otherwise they forego the Db bonus to attempt to Power attack, or to do other combat actions. So in this regard it cant be used as a "Super-weapon".

So if I power attack it's not a suoer-weapon but the other 90% of the time it is.

And technically you don't "use Shield" as part of an action as you don't use Shield Training to use the weapon.

Yes and no......The official ruling seems to be that this is more a parrying weapon than a shield therefore you do not need to be shield trained to get the bonus. However, (and here's the no part) you still need to use the shield to block an attack. (It's still a lump of metal designed to take the thrust of a weapon and deflect saving the weilder from taking damage. Just like every other shield thats ever been built.) That means that you are still doing 3 actions at once in 1 hand:
1) Attacking
2) Parrying
3) Using shield
A normal fighter using a sword and shield would normally need 2 hands to perform this feat. Attack and parry with the main weapon and deflect with the shield. Even if he uses the shield to bash he is still only performing 2 actions with that hand, shielding and bashing.

In the same way you don't use Sai to attack, Use Sai to Parry and Use Sai to get the extra DB bonus. (Wow, using three Sai in one hand in 2 seconds !? LOL!)

I think you'd better re-read the posts.....

Sai ands main gauches are parrying weapons. They are designed to be able to block larger weapons allowing you to attack more forcefully with another weapon. this means that sais and main gauches perform 2 functions, they parry and they attack. The additional DB is added to the parry but it's still only 2 actions (not quite sure how you made three?). HOWEVER,there is a downside, the sai and main gauche only do small attacks and do small criticals. As mentioned (ad nauseum) the madu doesn't have this trade off.

At the end of the day I guess the only way we'll know how big a mistake Madu's are is when PC's find out about them. If games start having an over abundance of Madu's then it's probably too powerful. All I know is that 4 new characters were made for our game and both Jason and myself decided to use Madu's. That's 50% of the new characters already and I'm not sure what the other 2 have chosen yet.

[Right Wing Wacko]

Well, personally, I would change damage size to Small... the blade looks about short sword length anyway...

Simple fix? See above.
As far as cultural or racial weapons go, the GM is free to determine what is allowable or restricted in his game... regardless of if it is printed in a book or not!
Does this prohibit a PC from learning skill with it? Of course not! (unless your GM says otherwise ), but it should prohibit those not of that race or culture to acquire skill at level 1.

Anyway, thats my 2 brass bits...

[jasonbrisbane]

Hi Pat,

Sorry, all my comments relating to the previous comment are meant to imply that all the details are to be determined, can be changed/ by the GM.

Thus the rules are there, but I as a GM would interprete the Madu to be a Cultural weapon.

You dont have to have a Rule "Set in stone tablets, handed down from the god  of gaming (Rasyr)" in order for it to be used.

The Martial law and other books are SUPPLEMENTAL, not core. The Harp CORE is the main book. All others are additional.
You choose to use it or not. If you don't want to use it then fine, don't use it.

As a GM, I would allow the Madu but put the caveat on it that it should be a cultural weapon. I swear I've seen Madu drawn in pictures of ancient Irish battles against the Tuath-De-Dannan (sp?), so I would allow it in an Irish game. In Harp/Cyradon I would allow it for a Nomadic culture, specifically a Horse-riding culture as I can see them holding the reigns with one hand and a madu in the other. They could approach other mounted fighters on their shield side and get an attack whilst the other mounted fighter would have to swing across the horse (possibly toppling off).

Sorry if I gave you the impression that what I said was Gospel and to be taken as Law.
I hate it when that happens... It happens all the time....

[jasonbrisbane]

And, if it's considered rare, what does rare mean? You need to be born in a certain location to find it? Or when you create your character you roll 1-100 and if you get 25 or less you've found one?

By rare I mean that in the GM's game world, only "the race of nomadic humans from the steppes use this weapon. Other races and cultures prefer other weapons eg: their common enemy the humans from the cities prefer wall shields and bastard swords as they look a lot more impressive against enemies". Thats sort of rare.

As you said "An attacker uses a Madu as a spear (1 hand Thrusting) to attack whilst presenting the shield side outwards ." Now I'm assuming that both attacker attacker and defender are right handed (since statistically this would be most likely) if the Madu weilder had the shield facing outwards (to his right), the attack from the foe would not even touch the shield as it would come in (most likely) from the left. (The foe's right hand would be the Madu defender's left side.) So why a +10 DB bonus?

the Madu IS a parrying weapon.
You use a sword to parry with the blade against the opponents blade (using bladed weapons as an example).
With a Madu there is a bigger surface area to block the attack with, thus the +10DB bonus.

I can't agree with this. A shield by it's very design and function is made to block an attack. To say it's design is to simply impede another attacker does not make sense. Especially for something that gives +10 DB.

Why not? How does parry work then? if you stick your weapon up to block an attack, it gets harder to push the edge of a blade over the side of the shield than it is to push it over the edge of another blade. Thus the +10DB. The sai is a parrying weapon whose design it is to  give the weilder the bonus to defending. The Madu is the same.

So if I power attack it's not a suoer-weapon but the other 90% of the time it is.

And yet you had no problem with me weilding a polearm doing large crits and using Dirty Fighting to make it a huge? Or power attack with polearm (Not requiring an additional roll) to also make it a huge attack? or doing the same with any other medium weapon to make it a Large critical with a one handed weapon and still use a Wall shield to get a huge DB bonus? Seems a little lopsided to me... I dont see it as a superweapon, just a different weapon.

RM had heaps of weapons that did Double crits (from the RM Companions) and no-one took them. Why? Because the GM was likely NOT to ever let you find a magical or better version of it because it would unbalance his game world. That is how you explained it to me in 1991, so I take it the same rule applies in HARP today??? (touche!)

However, (and here's the no part) you still need to use the shield to block an attack. (It's still a lump of metal designed to take the thrust of a weapon and deflect saving the weilder from taking damage. Just like every other shield thats ever been built.) That means that you are still doing 3 actions at once in 1 hand:

No, you are not "using a shield". The buckler on the madu is a lump of metal. If it were "using a shield" then you would requie shield training and there would be a Trained bonus and untrained bonus (as per regular shields). So this says that the madu has a lump of metal on one side that helps to deflect attacks. Sort of like those stylish rapiers with metal flowing over the handgrips to prevent other swords from hitting the attackers hands.

And, btw, I'm only using a Madu because it fit my character concept better than the polearm idea. I could still change to the polearm but it seems a little overpowered for my character concept.

I hope that explains my thinking. 

[Pat]

Hi Jas....

No offense meant or taken 

By rare I mean that in the GM's game world, only "the race of nomadic humans from the steppes use this weapon. Other races and cultures prefer other weapons eg: their common enemy the humans from the cities prefer wall shields and bastard swords as they look a lot more impressive against enemies". Thats sort of rare.

But (as in our game) these restrictions don't apply. I can create my character at home (as do all our people) and can choose all the rare or cultural weapons I want. Because we use rotating GM's restricting weapons by culture will most likely never be implemented. Also, I would find it difficult to say something like "Jason, sorry I've decided as my turn at GM that the Madu is a cultural weapon belonging to Elves only so you need to change your character." Especially since my character is an Elf using a Madu. (for example)

the Madu IS a parrying weapon.
You use a sword to parry with the blade against the opponents blade (using bladed weapons as an example).
With a Madu there is a bigger surface area to block the attack with, thus the +10DB bonus.

This is the problem. A Madu is being defined as a parrying weapon when it's not. This is the definition of a parrying dagger (main gauche) in Wikipedia:

"The parrying dagger is a category of small hand-held weapons from the European late Middle Ages and early Renaissance. These weapons were used as off-hand weapons in conjunction with a single-handed sword. As the name implies they were designed to parry, more effectively than a simple dagger form, typically incorporating a wider guard, and often some other defensive features to better protect the hand, as well. The main-gauche (French for "left hand")is used mainly to assist in parrying incoming thrusts, while the dominant hand wields a rapier or similar longer weapon intended for one-handed use."

So parrying weapons have the following characteristics:
Small
1 handed
Off-handed weapon
Designed to be used in conjunction with a main weapon
Designed to parry.

And even the name Main Gauche means left handed. Both Sai's and Main gauches fall under these definitions. A Madu though:

Is medium
Designed to be used as a main weapon (not as an off-handed weapon.)
Not designed to be used as in conjunction with a main weapon. (As you've said previously, 2 Madu's as a style would be silly. Unlike any other paired style for parrying weapons.)
Not designed to parry because it is a shield.

In fact I can prove it's a shield because the definition of a shield (as per Farlex) is:

". A broad piece of armor made of rigid material and strapped to the arm or carried in the hand for protection against hurled or thrusted weapons."

A main gauche and sai are not pieces of armour however, a "small metal buckler" as in the Madu description is.

In other words....A Madu is not a parrying weapon, it is a main weapon with a shield fixed to it's centre. A Madu helps your parry as much as a wall shield does, which is not at all. And yes it does have a bigger surface area because it's a shield. A sai and main gauche don't have large surface areas yet they defend better.

And yet you had no problem with me weilding a polearm doing large crits and using Dirty Fighting to make it a huge? Or power attack with polearm (Not requiring an additional roll) to also make it a huge attack? or doing the same with any other medium weapon to make it a Large critical with a one handed weapon and still use a Wall shield to get a huge DB bonus? Seems a little lopsided to me... I dont see it as a superweapon, just a different weapon.

Because there is no trade off for using a Madu and getting the bonus. So far we are saying that if you invest -10OB you get +20 DB from the Madu for parry.

Dirty fighting costs you ranks in the skill, it is not an automatic success since it requires a maneauver roll and, if successful, can't be used again against the same foe.

Power attacks cost -20 OB for +10 to crit and an increase in weapon size.

Plus both these skills can be used with a Madu as easily as any other weapon. AND YOU CAN STILL GET +10 DB WHEN PERFORMING THESE ACTIONS.

And you mention using a weapon and wall shield for a big DB. If the Madu is defined as a parrying weapon and not a shield, then you can carry a wall shield in your left hand, a madu in your right and have the extra +10 DB since there are no stacking rules against it. ("No GM I'm only using 1 shield, my wall shield. The buckler on the front of my spear isn't actually a shield so with 10 parry my DB is 60" (40 for shield and 20 for Madu bonus 10 (parry)+10.)

So currently you're different weapon (not super weapon) can do everythng listed and give +10 DB.

RM had heaps of weapons that did Double crits (from the RM Companions) and no-one took them. Why? Because the GM was likely NOT to ever let you find a magical or better version of it because it would unbalance his game world. That is how you explained it to me in 1991, so I take it the same rule applies in HARP today??? (touche!)

To be honest I can't remember that conversation (but I don't believe everything I think.)

But even then, the weapon costs 15sp so for 30x this amount (45 gp) I can get a +25 Masterwork, white alloy Madu (actually my character does have this weapon....and you thought a regular Madu was rare.)

I guess I'll have to suffer with this weapon since I may never find a magic one (sigh)

(oohhhh and I blocked your Touche with the shield on my Madu....No I didn't parry it  )

No, you are not "using a shield". The buckler on the madu is a lump of metal. If it were "using a shield" then you would requie shield training and there would be a Trained bonus and untrained bonus (as per regular shields). So this says that the madu has a lump of metal on one side that helps to deflect attacks. Sort of like those stylish rapiers with metal flowing over the handgrips to prevent other swords from hitting the attackers hands.

Please see definition of shield above.

Lets face it.....The writers at the time saw the weapon in a book or on-line (whatever) and wanted to put something different in. Unfortunately, they didn't think about game mechanics, weapon structure or about limiting it's effectiveness. (To the Martial Law writers: You did a brillant job. It is a well constructed and well thought out manual that is a worthy addition to HARP. However, the Madu is a mistake and Monks should have been better designed for translation into the damage adjustments table but, overall, big congratulations)

And, btw, I'm only using a Madu because it fit my character concept better than the polearm idea. I could still change to the polearm but it seems a little overpowered for my character concept.

And I'm only using the Madu because it is a seriously overpowered weapon. I can foresee all of my future characters having a Madu as a weapon because +10 DB is too good to pass up. (So this one weapon practically destroys any character concepts I may have had.)

I guess you like the weapon and don't think it wil impact on our games. I think that once everyone is aware of the bonus it gives, the madu will become the must have weapon. It's already done that to me and I believe that it may diminish my appreciation of the game and the well structured balance of HARP prior to this weapon.

[choc]

This is the problem. A Madu is being defined as a parrying weapon when it's not. This is the definition of a parrying dagger (main gauche) in Wikipedia:

"The parrying dagger is a category of small hand-held weapons from the European late Middle Ages and early Renaissance. These weapons were used as off-hand weapons in conjunction with a single-handed sword. As the name implies they were designed to parry, more effectively than a simple dagger form, typically incorporating a wider guard, and often some other defensive features to better protect the hand, as well. The main-gauche (French for "left hand")is used mainly to assist in parrying incoming thrusts, while the dominant hand wields a rapier or similar longer weapon intended for one-handed use."

Definition of a madu in WikiPedia:

"A madu (maru, singuata) is an Indian parrying and thrusting weapon."

[Pat]

This is the problem. A Madu is being defined as a parrying weapon when it's not. This is the definition of a parrying dagger (main gauche) in Wikipedia:

"The parrying dagger is a category of small hand-held weapons from the European late Middle Ages and early Renaissance. These weapons were used as off-hand weapons in conjunction with a single-handed sword. As the name implies they were designed to parry, more effectively than a simple dagger form, typically incorporating a wider guard, and often some other defensive features to better protect the hand, as well. The main-gauche (French for "left hand")is used mainly to assist in parrying incoming thrusts, while the dominant hand wields a rapier or similar longer weapon intended for one-handed use."

Definition of a madu in WikiPedia:

"A madu (maru, singuata) is an Indian parrying and thrusting weapon."

Yes you're right.....It is an Indian parrying and thrusting weapon. In fact the description of the weapon is (as I believe you have previously noted):

It consists of a pair of antelope horns fastened behind a small plate consisting of stretched leather, iron, or steel with the tips of the horns pointing in opposite directions. The tips of the horns were often sheathed in steel, and the small plate served to protect the hand and wrist. It was usually wielded in the left hand, with a spear, dagger, or sword held in the right. It was favored by the Bhils, Hindu religious beggars, and by swordsmen as a defense.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madu"

Unfortunately a Madu, instead of being a singular defined weapon, has become it's own weapon group. Basically any weapon that has a shield built in is being defined as a Madu. (I guess because the Indian version was the first example of this, but that's just a guess.)

I wouldn't mind if the Indian version was substituted for the descibed weapon in ML as the Indian version, in my opinion, would only do small damage not medium. And it would match the crieria I mentioned a couple of posts ago as a parrying weapon since it's "shield" basically only protected the hand and wrist. (Little more than the guard that you would find in a lot of swords or in Main Gauches.)

Plus the description says that it is designed to be a secondary weapon not a primary so why give it a medium rating?

Another problem is that a Madu (the Indian one) is a low tech weapon when compared to swords. Yet we have made it higher tech than it really was by putting a shield on a 4' spear when in reality, it was probably short (1-2'), light (well it was supposed to be held in a person's weaker hand) and probably used a lot of natural materials. Antelope horn, leather, sinew etc. and probably had a "shield" that was only a few inches across unlike our bucklers that are from 8" to 20" across.

Look you're exactly right with your definition of a Madu, the only trouble is the desription of the Indian parrying weapon and the ML description are two different things. In fact they're two different weapon groups (in my opinion.)

[GMLovlie]

Whoops. I presumed it was a pole-arm, so much for just flipping through a book and not reading thoroughly during game-play. well well, I have to tell my players, heh.. this is the weapon of the city guard in one of my cities.
Is there an official weapon group it is supposed to belong to? Thrusting weapons? pole-arm? Short/long blades? I guess it depends on how you?re trained to use it. The pictures of this weapon seem to differ, which can suggest that it can be used in different ways, also that is can be made in different ways.

I would rule that, unless you use power attack, it always give +10 to the DB. I see there are lots of arguments back and forth, but basically its up to the GM (in this case, me, since its my campaign and setting). I would tend to agree that if used paired-weapon style, you get +20 from the both weapons, only when full parrying. Otherwise you only gain the +10 from one weapon, or the higher of the two (if one is magically enhanced on the DB side of things, perhaps even just the average of the two, i.e. +15 if one is +10 and the other +20 to DB).

I was wondering though, since this is a thread about this weapon specifically, how about double-weapon combat style? would it work with it? attacking with both ends? how about a longer version of the weapon, i.e. a Long-Madu?

I would still rule it as a medium weapon, due to how I see it being used in a fight. With a Fencing Slash option, which causes not tiny, but small slash at a -10 to -15 penalty. This is based one of the pictures posted earlier in this thread, depends of course how it?s made. Most might only do tiny, but one of those pictures showed some quite bladed ends, not actually as described in ML.

[choc]

[...]

Sounds logical.

First: it does small damage but two sided - in game terms machanics a medium?

Second: it's a low tech weapon (ergo no white alloy - white alloy antelopes?) - prolly a -10 or -15 weapon (depends on tech level of the game world)

Third: it's thrusting weapon group - no 'set against charge', no 'hold at bay' or equal combat maneuvers allowed

Fourth: owning to the two-sided weapon i would raise the fumble range (ie equal to chains plus)

Idea: Take it as a small weapon with the combat style options to deal two attacks count as a medium attack


____

A long madu will be more like a spear with an oval shield like massai style ...

[Pat]

First: it does small damage but two sided - in game terms machanics a medium?

I guess it depends...I actually pictured the attack as a single thrust with one of the blades of the weapon, therefore a small attack. If you're saying it's a hit with both blades (forward and back) then yes I'd say a medium. But, if it is a double attack, then I'd want the player to invest ranks in a skill like Double Weapon (ML) to get the medium crit.

Second: it's a low tech weapon (ergo no white alloy - white alloy antelopes?) - prolly a -10 or -15 weapon (depends on tech level of the game world)

I'd be fine with this as well....Of course that would only work if you and I can convince the powers that be to change the current ML weapon desciption to the Madu (Indian parrying weapon description.) 

Third: it's thrusting weapon group - no 'set against charge', no 'hold at bay' or equal combat maneuvers allowed

Yep I agree.

Fourth: owning to the two-sided weapon i would raise the fumble range (ie equal to chains plus)

Idea: Take it as a small weapon with the combat style options to deal two attacks count as a medium attack

Fine with point 4 and fine with your idea. (Provided of course that the second attack raises the first to a medium crit and doesn't actually do 2 attacks.)

For instance: Madu style attack can be used as a single attack (with automatic 2 strikes, one from each blade) causing a medium crit provided the player has Double weapon ranks equal to or in excess of his Madu skill.
Or the Madu can be used normally, as a parrying dagger style, doing a small crit and getting +10 to DB.

A long madu will be more like a spear with an oval shield like massai style ...

Ohhh God...I just got a mental picture of a spear (large crit) with a wall shield hanging from the middle and the PC going "OK does my +10DB from the Madu add on to my wall shield or wot?" 

[GMLovlie]

The idea for a long-madu, on my part, was to create something that could, in game terms and somewhat based on reality, have a medium attack/crit, without the assumption that you attack with both sides in some fancy way. So, I was not thinking of a large crit, for that you would, in my mind, need two hands, and I see this weapon (i.e. long-madu) wielded as easily with one hand as with two, without decreasing its effective damage cap. Still only about a buckler sized shield, so no more than +10 DB, but with actual support to do medium attacks/crits. And also fit the bill for double-weapon fighting better. I don?t know, but I see 4? as pretty short for an effective and useful double-weapon, the Jo being about that length, it?s not ideal for double weapon fighting, in my experience (albeit that is limited to Aikido training some years ago), whilst a quarterstaff, which is about 6? is much more usable for such purposes (from Hung Kuen Mo Kwon/Hung Gar kung fu training more recently, of course the way we used it mostly, it?s a reach weapon (to use such terms from "that other game"), monkey-stick makes use of both sides, which takes you closer to your opponent). Twin bladed swords (according to ML) are from about 6? to 9? in length, counting shaft and blades, 4? is then a bit short in my opinion.

I see a long-madu as a possible pole-arm. Any suggestions?

[Fidoric]

I also think that a effective double weapon must be used two-handed.
And why not consider the protective plate of the madu as an elaborate envelopping guard protecting the wielder's hand and giving no DB bonus. The small plate merely acts as the crossguard of a sword. Otherwise, why not give a broadsword a +10 DB bonus when compared to a roman gladius (lacking a crossguard) ?
That way, madu becomes only a flavor choice and not a bonus choice.
I don't no if that is realistic, but it avoids creating overpowered weapons.

[Pat]

I see that there are 6 basic weapon groups and each have advantages and disadvantages that achieve game balance. These are:
1) Small weapons. Plus side small, light weapons that can easily be used as one handed as a secondary weapon and can often be used as thrown blades as a bonus attack style.
Neg side small crits with a damage cap of 90 that generally do not have the reach of other weapons.
2) One handed medium weapons. Plus side reasonable reach, mediuim crit weapon that allows the off hand a free range of actions. (Use shield, use second weapon etc)
Neg side is not much. It is the basic weapon upon which others are judged and, as such, doesn't have great bonuses or weaknesses.
3) Two-handed weapons. Plus side is a large crit (+10) with max 110. Good reach and an intimidating weapon.
Neg side is uses 2 hands. There's a sacrifice of shield use or second weapon for the extra damage.
4) Missile weapons. Plus side long range that can be adjusted to your character. (ie bows, slings and light crossbow for medium crits, heavy crossbow for large crits but again there is a trade off of re-load time).
Neg side high re-load time and useless in a melee situation.
5) Parrying weapons. Main gauche and Sai have the bonses and negatives of the  small weapons group with the further option of +15 to DB when used defensively. This means you can get +15 to DB but you lose OB, you do small attacks with the weapon and it has a damage cap of 90.
6) Madu. Plus side is all the advantages of a medium weapon (medium crit, max of 100 and a free hand). Also, a +10 bonus to DB when used defensively. (This means that if I sacrifice 10 to parry I get +20 to DB.)
Neg side you need to sacrifice OB to get the parry bonus.

In other words....It hasn't been designed to have balance within the HARP game setting or have balance within the game mechanics of HARP. For any weapon not to be overpowered there must be some sort of trade off between the bonus received and the price you pay for it. The Madu is the only weapon where your return for investment far outweighs the price paid (ie 10 parry for +20 DB).

Any future Madu weapons (ie Long Madu) needs to have some negative trade off to bring the weapon into game balance or else you'll end up with a weapon like the current Madu, an overpowered weapon that doesn't follow the rules of balance that HARP is based on.   

[jasonbrisbane]

Jegeryte: Madu is 1HE:Thrusting group it cant be used as Double weapon combat style as it is 1 handed (Double weapon says Two handed weapon such as staff or polearm). A longer version, IMO would be a different group (polearm)

Choc: Correct. only certain combat styles and combat actions would be allowed. Since it is a 1 handed thrusting weapon, none of the polearm combat actions would be allowed.  Low tech weapon, yes. Martial Law has Bonus materials, but no details on Low Tech materials. I'd probably go with the -10 OB due to materials - this would offset the +10 to DB it gives - albeit for different reasons. You also apply this -10 to any RR rolls that the WEAPON makes... (bigger chance of breaking/failing rolls if you try to attack wall?). I wouldnt change the attack type, but there is a Combat Style that allows you to attack with both sides of the weapon: I'd allow the Madu to use this.

Pat: Remember that the madu doesnt need to parry to get the +10db bonus - that was just a suggestion by me. I'd still allow it as is - as a GM I just would never put in an Improved (superior steel or white alloy, etc?) weapon in any treasure pile, and I'd probably ensure any magical weapons were 1handed thrusting weapons to get you to change weapons (  )

[Pat]

Pat: Remember that the madu doesnt need to parry to get the +10db bonus - that was just a suggestion by me.

2) The Madu  is a defensive weapon. To me, this means that does not receive the +10 to DB when using 100% of OB to attack, you have to be parrying at least an equal amount (i.e. 10 points of OB to DB) to get the bonus to DB (i.e. 10 points from OB to DB give +10 to DB plus a bonus +10 as described)

Hi Jas,

Well it looks like Rasyr agreed with your suggestion because it was posted as above that you need to parry to get the additional DB. I hope you've been using your 10 to parry to get the bonus in our games. hehehehe

[jasonbrisbane]

Pat: Remember that the madu doesnt need to parry to get the +10db bonus - that was just a suggestion by me.

2) The Madu  is a defensive weapon. To me, this means that does not receive the +10 to DB when using 100% of OB to attack, you have to be parrying at least an equal amount (i.e. 10 points of OB to DB) to get the bonus to DB (i.e. 10 points from OB to DB give +10 to DB plus a bonus +10 as described)

Hi Jas,

Well it looks like Rasyr agreed with your suggestion because it was posted as above that you need to parry to get the additional DB. I hope you've been using your 10 to parry to get the bonus in our games. hehehehe

Of course. Thats why my OB s*cks so much!