Topic: Can Elemental Bolts be parried?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Okay, a couple of comments and then I will post my conclusion. Tomorrow morning, I will be discussing this with Heike and we will post an official ruling. I came to the conclusion at the bottom after looking up a few things in the RMC books and reading them.

Note: I have always played where you could not parry missiles or elemental bolts at all without a special talent or ability or spell.

References/Notes
RMC Spell Law - page 40, first paragraph under Elemental Attack Rolls -- it states that elemental attack spells are physical attacks and should be treated like physical attacks.

Bolt Spells have 3 ranges: 100' (most common), 300' and 500'.

Missile Weapons have ranges that vary from 180' to 400'.

Shields have different bonuses versus melee, missile weapons, and elemental attacks. Shields are of no benefit against ball (area effect) attacks.

RMC Arms Law - page 15; Parrying Missile Fire -- it states that the defender must be aware of the attack and that the defender MUST have a shield. That the Defender may move OB to DB against the attack. Also that Parrying a Missile is a Specific Action that can/must be declared (or aborted to if you have enough activity left).


Conclusions
After reading the above sections I came to the following conclusions....

1) The various types of ranged attacks move at different speeds, and that those with the short ranges have the slowest speeds. Thus an elemental bolt attack with a range of 100' moves slower than the bullet from a sling (range 180') and that all but the highest level elemental bolts move slower than arrows from most bows.

2) That, yes, when using a shield you can parry elemental bolt attacks, the same way that you parry missiles like arrows, crossbow bolts, sling stones and thrown missiles. The shield is effective against all these ranged attacks (even if at varying degrees), so the Parrying Missile Fire section also applies to Elemental Bolts.

3) Shields cannot be used to parry elemental ball/cone attacks.

Comments? Cheers? Jeers?

[yammahoper]

I have never allowed bolts to be parried.  DIrected Spell OB is typically lower than melee OB, and I have always invisioned the bolt as a hyper chargerd attack.

lynn

[Cormac Doyle]

2) That, yes, when using a shield you can parry elemental bolt attacks, the same way that you parry missiles like arrows, crossbow bolts, sling stones and thrown missiles. The shield is effective against all these ranged attacks (even if at varying degrees), so the Parrying Missile Fire section also applies to Elemental Bolts.

This has always been a core part of the rules, and I have always allowed it.

3) Shields cannot be used to parry elemental ball/cone attacks.

You cannot parry an elemental ball or cone attack; however, you *can* gain cover bonuses. I allow a large shield or wall shield to grant it's static bonus as a cover bonus (e.g. A wall shield will grant a +40 to the DB of someone cowering behind it ... a Buckler will grant a measly +10). This does not allow you to transfer some/all of your OD into DB. Generally, it is better to use the "sudden dodge" maneuver to leap out of the way.

#4 - To parry an attack (elemental / Melee / Missile) you must be aware of it.

However, the basis behind this was the assumption that the character understood the threat that the mage posed ... someone who had never experienced a bolt attack before, and had no reason to expert one would not be able to dodge ... even if they knew their opponent was a mage, they assumed that they were about to be "cursed" ... after the first attack, they knew to put the shield between themselves and their attacker.

To put this simply ...

#4 - To parry an attack (elemental / Melee / Missile) you must be aware of it.

1) The various types of ranged attacks move at different speeds, and that those with the short ranges have the slowest speeds. Thus an elemental bolt attack with a range of 100' moves slower than the bullet from a sling (range 180') and that all but the highest level elemental bolts move slower than arrows from most bows.

Unless you are trying to shoot "the Flash", or someone is under the effects of Haste, Speed and Adrenal Speed all at the same time, the relative speed of the attacks is more-or-less immaterial. However, I have always assumed that ALL elemental bolts travel at the same speed as a sling bullet.

[Marc R]

The reference to "Resolved as physical" in the EAR attack rules is specificly and in context referring to the fact that the bolts and balls do not grant a RR. . .

"Missiles" are defined on page 12 as "Slow moving", as opposed to "Projectile weapons" or lightningbolts. (I parry at the speed of light!)

the EAR resolution section, and table, do not include parry.

If they did, fighters with shields and a 100 weapon OB could close with a mage 10% move, while parrying "missiles" for +90 DB (over their normal DB). . .good luck getting a hit in. (Compare fighter melee OBs to Mage directed spell OBs at equal levels.) <Yamma pointed that out first I must admit>

The Arms Companion added the "Spell Deflection" skill to allow you to use a shield to parry EAR attacks. (Why add a capability to one you already had)

Take a look at spell law. . .will "Aim Untrue" or "Deflections" that work vs missiles work vs bolts?

And the shield specs, with three different DBs vs "Melee", "missile" and "EAR" the "EAR" being lowest. . .since in effect, a shield is just cover. . .

I agree with Yamma. . .Bolts are highly energetic, fast attacks, not missile attacks. . .the various bolt spells in combat are akin to bullets and lasers in spacemaster. . no parry allowed.

EAR, Melee and Missile each have slightly different rules relating to what gives DB, what can parry, what spells affect them, etc. . .the tripple threat makes it far harder to create a character who can casually handle all three. (on purpose I suspect, the system is rife with mechanics purposfully designed to always leave open a weakness.)



I went to check Brent's errata page, found this:

Parrying
You may not parry directed spell attacks without the aid of specific spells. [R, 6/7/00]

I'm pretty sure that "R" means rasyr 

[Ecthelion]

1) The various types of ranged attacks move at different speeds, and that those with the short ranges have the slowest speeds. Thus an elemental bolt attack with a range of 100' moves slower than the bullet from a sling (range 180') and that all but the highest level elemental bolts move slower than arrows from most bows.

The observation about slowest speed for slowest ranges is probably true for physical missile attacks, but IMHO not for bolt attacks. Especially for a Lightning Bolt I always assumed that this indeed moves at the speed of light.

2) That, yes, when using a shield you can parry elemental bolt attacks, the same way that you parry missiles like arrows, crossbow bolts, sling stones and thrown missiles. The shield is effective against all these ranged attacks (even if at varying degrees), so the Parrying Missile Fire section also applies to Elemental Bolts.

I would not necessarily follow this interpretation. But to be sure I took a look into my old Spacemaster rulebooks and read about parrying energy/projectile weapons vs. "archaic" missile/thrown weapons like bows or thrown javelins. The rules there say that the latter can be parried using a personal (=wielded in hand) shield or suitable terrain - just like we have it in the rules now. But energy attacks - and this is what I count elemental bolts among - cannot be parried using personal shields, but can be parried using suitable terrain. But even in this case the DB is halved before being applied. I further took a look at the few bolt spells that are available in SM. These are indeed treated like energy attacks (a small laser pistol). I don't think the bolt spells in SM are fundamentally different to those in RM, so both are probably meant to be extremely fast energy attacks.

To sum it up, IMO elemental bolts should not be allowed to be parried using a personal shield. They might be allowed to be parried using suitable terrain, but only at halve effectivity.

Does this make sense?

[Cormac Doyle]

Compromise - parry Directed Spells, High-speed projectiles (bullets from an AK47) and Energy attacks (lasers, etc) at 50% ... thus for every +2 OB you put into your defense, you get +1 DB

This mirrors the rule for parrying with 2-handed weapons ... so it's not a rule by exception

To parry - you must have a shield or suitable terrain.

[thrud]

+1 I agree with Cormac Doyle
Would the shield bonus vs missiles be appropriate though?

[Cormac Doyle]

thrud - there's a separately listed shield bonus vs EAR ...

[Marc R]

"Parry with terrain" is one of those grey area rules. . . .it's "GMs discretion" in the book as to how much DB it generates.

"Hiding behind a rock" is cover, giving a set bonus based on coverage, and you loose your quickness DB if you are not moving. (On the upside, if you are 100% covered, you're safe.)

"Using trees as a terrain feature to parry" implies running in the trees to make you hard to hit. . .it's not cover, since your cover varies, and you get qu DB. . .

The GM likely would give some sort of bonus to "Terrain parry" of that sort vs any attack.

The major difference being that "Terrain parry" is not based on your OB the way other parries are. . .it's essentially a side rule, like cover, covering the tactical situation and the maneuvering of the combatants in the environment in terms of it making attacks harder.

Equating that to missile parry, where the fighter with Sword and Shield can use his sword OB/DB split to block the attack is a stretch, even at 1/2.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Parry == reducing one's offensive combat capabilities in order to increase one's defensive capabilities.

Parrying Missiles is a 50% activity action. You must be aware of the attack. You must have a shield (because you are using the shield to directly, purposely catch/deflect the incoming missile).

Shield work against elemental bolt attacks (their bonus is not as high as against other missiles, but the again neither are as high against melee attacks either). That is what I consider to be a key point here. The shield works against elemental bolt attacks. It can be the difference between a character getting hit by a bolt or not.

So, if you can purposely catch/deflect a missile that you know is coming, then why can you not purposely catch/deflect an elemental bolt that you know is coming

Nobody is saying to change the bonus of the shield against elemental bolt. Only that a character should be allowed to sacrifice offensive potential, to increase their defensive potential by purposely and deliberately interposing their shield against an attack that they know is coming.

[Ecthelion]

So, if you can purposely catch/deflect a missile that you know is coming, then why can you not purposely catch/deflect an elemental bolt that you know is coming

Perhaps the original reasoning was that arrows and thrown javelins are large and/or slow enough so that the defender's eyes and muscles are able to perceive the missile and intercept it with the shield. Elemental bolts, projectiles etc. OTOH are too small and/or too fast, so that this is no longer possible. Nevertheless a shield in one hand even against those attacks gives a bonus to the DB as it at least offers some kind of cover. That's how it "works" against elemental attacks.

But instead of ruling that elemental bolts, energy weapon attacks and projectiles cannot be parried at all we might rule that parrying is less effective, just as Cormac suggested. This is I think a good compromise.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Well, in a couple of hours, I will have talked with Heike and ICE will make its official ruling on this.

And note: I am getting a ruling on Elemental Bolts ONLY, not on energy weapons, not on guns or other projectile weapons, etc. Just Elemental Bolts. This is a ruling regarding the fantasy rules, not the sci-fi rules.

[dutch206]

Agree with Rasyr that this is possible.  However, please note the ineffectiveness of parrying a shock bolt with a metal shield!

[Marc R]

A shield gives DB vs EAR attacks because they offer cover. . .if you notice, their DB bonus goes DOWN for EAR compared to either missile or melee DB bonus from a shield. Notice the massive hit the Target shield gets. . .I'd say that's since a target shield is an active parrying shield. . .as opposed to a wall shield, which you hide behind for cover. . .so vs EAR the target is almost worthless. . .if you look at the discount the shield DBs take, it seems clear that the ones that offer cover work mostly fine, but the ones you actively parry or block with take a DB penalty.

So, shooting at you with a bolt, a bit of you is covered by the shield and therefore in cover. . .

If I'm shooting an arrow or javelin at you, as Ecth said, you can move the shield to block it. (i.e. the very definition of parry) if I cast a lightningbolt on you, it is over and done with before you can react. . .thus your shield might be in my way, but it's not being moved around into the way in any signifigant manner. (i.e. it's not parrying.)

[Setorn]

What seems to be missing is what kind of bolt and what type of shield.  It would seem to me that Wooden shields would work well against most bolts save fire, and metal would be best against water, & ice, less against fire and nearly useless against lighting and shock.  Maybe the critical tables need to be referenced, but I have a meeting in a little bit and do not have the time to check.  

Need to go....

[PiXeL01]

We have never in our group used the Parry rules for missiles .. AT ALL .. It might be because no one really have bothered to read through the books AGAIN after 20 years of play, so it has never been an issue for us ... I/We have always calculated DB against Missiles/Bolts the following way (DB+AD)/2 - injuries + magical DB + Shield. I have started mentioning the parry oppotunity to people in my group, but will only allow this against Missiles which are fired or thrown. It is of my opinion (and others) That magical bolts and magical attacks of any kind are simply too fast to be EFFICIENTLY defected by a shield wearer or effectly dogded.

I think I read it in the SPAM the rules for AD, which said melee, full; Bow/thrown half; Projectile/Energy/Psy(magical) bolts quartered. Maybe you could use this way of caculating general and parrying DB against bolts. (Natural DB + Parried amount)/4+shield and so on?

Oh yeah, side not .. DB, natural OR shield doesnt help AT ALL against ball attacks ...

[Marc R]

An aside. . .Do FRP or HARP rules allow parry to be used on bolts?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Official Ruling
Can elemental bolts be "parried"?

Ruling: Elemental Bolts may indeed be parried using the exact same guidelines found in RMC Arms Law, page 15, under "Parrying Missile Fire".

End Official Ruling

[yammahoper]

I hope this doesn't make it into the revision.  Take cover or be shot.  The bolt casting mage just got nuetered.  Three men with shield will kick his butt.  Fireball you say?  Well, the bolt spells are level 2, 4 and 6, with level 10 for lightning bolt, RM most powerful attack.  Ball spells are level 8 and 10.  Low level mages are gonna suffer at the hands of a well trained lurg or lowly orcs.

Still, I imagine there are more than a few official rules I do not use.  How ever you spell kay-sa-rah, kay-sa-rah.

lynn

[mocking bird]

So since elemental bolts are essentially being treated as missile weapons and parried, can they be deflected per spell?

An aside. . .Do FRP or HARP rules allow parry to be used on bolts?

I don't see anything in HARP regarding parrying missile weapons so probably not.  I vaguely recall a missile parry in SS but then again we have never used it.

I never liked the idea of parrying with a shield in general anyway - melee or missile (and like yamma definitely not elemental bolts - there are spells for that).  A shield is supposed to parry and gives a DB bonus so how do you parry more with it?  It is essentially parrying with your armor.