Topic: Spell List aquisition, fail SGR can still learn list?

[shnar]

I'm reading through the RMC Spell Law and notice on page 20 under section 3.1, the second bullet point says that if you fail your Spell Gain Roll, you can still spend development points to boost the rank up to 20, learn that portion of the list, and then start on a second list. Is this right? I always thought that if you failed, you were done until next level. If you can just spend more pts, to effectively redo the roll, then why would a pure spell user ever do anything but that? I mean, a lot of pure spell users usually spend 20pts on a list (or close to it), so if you were planning on spending 20pts, just spend 10 first and if you fail your roll, then spend the 20, otherwise yea! You got your list!

Just making sure I read this right...

-shnar

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Spell User (any type) buys 10 ranks in a list. This gives a bonus of 50 to Spell Gain Roll (SGR). He rolls a 42 failing the SGR. He now has 3 choices....

1) Wait until next level and buy a minimum of 1 more rank, to add to the 10 already known and make another SGR. (those first 10 ranks were NOT lost/wasted unless he did #2 below)

2) Start development on a new list. This causes him to lose ALL ranks purchased for the first list. No transfers, no saving, they are gone.

3) Buy MORE ranks in the list where the roll just failed (those previously purchased ranks are NOT lost). However, in doing this, the character MUST purchase enough ranks to bring the total for the list up to 20 (i.e. where no SGR is required) and the list is automatically learned. in the case of our example above, that would mean having to buy another 10 ranks in the list.


It is not something new. If you have a copy of the red spine RM2 Spell Law, look at the first paragraph in the right hand column on page 9 (IIRC), and you will see that is says the same thing as what the RMC Spell Law says.

However, if you are like most players and spend all of your other DPs first, saving just what you consider enough for the list, you pretty much get forced to use option 1 above.


Note

[shnar]

If he makes the SGR, can he start on a second list that level, or wait until the next level?

-shnar

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

According to the rules the only way to learn a second list is to purchase 20 ranks in the first.

Basically you get 1 Spell Gain Roll per level.

You can buy 20 ranks to automatically learn first list, then buy ranks in second and make a Spell Gain Roll for the second list.

If you buy ranks in first list and fail the Spell Gain Roll; you can either buy ranks in second list (no roll entitled until the next level) or buy more ranks in first list, but it has to be enough to put the total number of ranks to 20, and you are not allowed to start learning a second list.

At least that is how I read it.

Personally, I prefer using option 2.2 on page 22 myself (that is the option used in Rolemaster Express).

[Marc R]

Tim's got it right.

[shnar]

Hm, I might be reading this wrong, but it reads like they could get 2 SGRs:

? If a character is able to allocate development points for a total of 20 skill ranks with a list (ensuring its gain without the use of a stat bonus), they learn the first list immediately and may begin to develop skill ranks for a second spell list and are entitled to make a Spell Gain Roll for the second.

? If a character, after making an unsuccessful Spell Gain Roll, wishes to begin the study of another list, they may do so, but they forfeit all skill ranks developed for the first spell list. Such skill ranks may be neither transferred nor retained if the character wishes to switch their efforts to some other spell list. They may, if they have enough development points, allocate development points to bring the skill rank total with the first list to 20 and then begin to develop skill ranks for the second as described above.

(emphasis added)

The whole "as described above", which says they "are entitled to make a Spell Gain Roll for the second" list. It seems like a character could earn 10 ranks, fail the roll, spend an additional 10 ranks to earn the list, and then spend another amount on a second list and get another roll. I don't see anything in there about only getting one SGR per level...

-shnar

[shnar]

Personally, I prefer using option 2.2 on page 22 myself (that is the option used in Rolemaster Express).

I actually like that option best myself, IIRC first introduced in RMCIV, since it makes the most sense, especially when compared to how skills are earned. I think though that the empty slots only cost 1pt regardless in RCMIV's option, but I can't remember and don't have book with me.

But I was thinking I would a round of optionless, "core" Rolemaster and see how we like it, so I wanted to make sure I understood the core rules.

-shnar

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Opotion 2.2 has spell lists costing 2 DP per rank for pure and hybrid casters, regardless of whether a slot is empty or not. Spell development costs do not change for the other professions.

the doubling of costs for pures and hybrids was a balance measure.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I was mistaken before - I missed the "as described above" part. 

So yes, if they pay for 20 ranks in the first (even if they failed a SGR in the middle), they can still purchase and try to get a second list.

However, if they fail the SGR for the second list (or even if they buy 20 ranks in second list) they do NOT get chance at third list.

[shnar]

I don't know, since the "as described above" seems to imply it could happen as many times as possible, though I doubt a player is going to be spending 40+ dev pts on spell lists

As for Option 2.2, I think the original RMCIV option had doubled everyone's spell costs, in addition to just costing 1pt for no spell levels. My guess is the original author's intention (though no idea who this original author was) was that since there was no more rolling, you would effectively be spending the same amount of DP as if you had purchased all 20 ranks, automatically earning the whole list. Trade off was you could earn more spells at the same time (I think the option was limited to number of powerpts. i.e. if you had 3 pps, you could learn from 3 different spell lists per level).

-shnar

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

the as described above refers specificall to where it is talking about a second list. There is nothing mentioned third or other subsequent lists.

[Marc R]

the situation described is this:

Magician buys 20 ranks in Light Law, gets it auto, can then buy ranks and roll for fire law.

If, OTOH the magician buys 10 ranks in light law, and rolls, pass or fail they are done for this level.

If that magician gets another level, they start off with 10 ranks in light law SLA already. . .so they have a choice. . .they can:

Roll on light law, done for the level pass or fail.
Buy 10 more ranks to 20, auto get light law, then buy some ranks in fire law and proceed.
or
Buy ranks in fire law. . .loosing the 10 "Carryover" ranks in light law.

you only get one SLA roll per level, and you roll AFTER you have purchased all ranks, so no chance of any of those schenanigans you mentioned.

i.e. the process is:

1) Go up a level
2) Make Stat gain/loss rolls
3) Calculate DP based on your temp stats after step 2
4) Purchase ranks in skills with the DP total from step 3
5) Calculate the bonuses given based on new ranks.
6) Make Spell Gain Roll (SGR) if you either purchased ranks in Spell List Aquisition(SLA) this level, or carried over ranks of SLA from a failed SGR from last level.

Since by the time you reach step 6, you've already spent all of your DP in step 4, there's no way to roll, THEN get more ranks, until you go up a level again.

That help?

[shnar]

Not at all. I don't see how you came to that conclusion from reading the rules in Spell Law. There's nothing in Spell Law that says you only get one SGR per level. In fact, it's pretty clear that they say you can spend points AFTER you fail your SGR roll, implying that the SGR roll can be made during the middle of spending points.

Is there something in CharacterLaw that gives you your interpretation of the rules?

-shnar

[shnar]

I found it, in CharLaw it does state:

Note: Before making a new roll at the next level, you may spend DP to buy more ranks. If you purchase 20 ranks, you automatically gain that spell list, and may spend DP on another, which you then make a spell gain roll on. Remember that you can never make more than one spell gain roll per level.

Character Law Classic, section 7.6, page 83 & 84 (emphasis added).

This is how I remember playing Rolemaster and was a little confused that maybe I was playing wrong when I started reading SpellLaw Classic. It is not stated that clearly in SpellLaw, which lead to my ambiguity.

-shnar

[Marc R]

Sorry about that. . .

The order of "Get DP, Spend DP, Calculate bonus" in the level gain section would preclude the roll then ranks anyway. You cannot roll + Bonus until after you know the bonus, and you won't know the bonus until you're done spending DP.

System is quirky, but cross checking the books, as you did, usually gets the right answer.