Topic: More goodies in the pipeline

[dutch206]

I must say that the September 14 newsletter brought some welcome news;  more RMC goodies on the way!   

Hopefully, they will be out before Christmas.  They would make great stocking stuffers.

[munchy]

Can do nothing but agree with dutch.
However, didn't think the newsletter was too long, could have been longer with even more information and announcements!

[thrud]

Yes, it's always welcome news when hearing about new supplements. The "gift law" was a surprise though. Sounds very interesting and I want it!
Looking forward to the "combat companion" as well but we all knew that one was in the pipeline.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Well, the gift companion was originally going to be added to Campaign Law, but the more ICE thought about it, the more it was realized that it would do better as a separate book.

In addition to the Gifts, it may also include skill packages (and rules for making/using them) of some sort. I say "may" because the guys have not finished working out all of the details yet, and also because until it gets published, EVERYTHING about a product is subject to change.

However, I would like to say that these "skill packages" will NOT be like exactly like Training Packages in RMSS/FRP, they will not contain items or stat rolls, etc. and they will not each have an individual cost per profession (1/4 page for the skill package, and then 2 pages to list all of the costs for each and every profession -- I think not)

And there may be other character defining things in the book as well. It is still in development...   

[thrud]

Razyr> I like the fact that you're not revamping the TPs since they are horrible.

1. But if I might make a small suggestion. How about designing general rules to cover training with teachers. This training would be responsible for the cheaper skills...
Of course some schools would require you to aquire a certain number of skills since theay are part of the education, thus you get the packages.

2. Or the flipside would be a fixed cost for all professions.

The question would be: Which one is most Rolemaster? #1 is in line with strict profssion boundries. #2 will make it more prone to powergaming. All the magicians will opt for the "warrior package" each level so that they get all the nice wapon skills for cheap...
The Fighters will opt for the "mage package" since that will give them the spells they could never afford with standard costs.

Also, very nice to include the time aspect. How long will it take to develop the skills with a teacher's aid vs. doing it on your own? How will the size of the class affect things? Are you the only pupil or are you one among 50 other students?

[Ecthelion]

However, I would like to say that these "skill packages" will NOT be like exactly like Training Packages in RMSS/FRP,

Fine.

they will not contain items or stat rolls,

Also fine. What I could imagine though, are "typical" items a character acquires during the training and where he might get a small discount for buying them during the training period.

etc. and they will not each have an individual cost per profession (1/4 page for the skill package, and then 2 pages to list all of the costs for each and every profession -- I think not)

Great. Personally I'd prefer to only have "skill packages" (SPs) as a guideline for what skills to learn when the character heads towards a certain profession (more in the sense of a job, not a "character class"), so that e.g. a new RM player knows that a Soldier would not only learn Weapon Skills but also Body Development, Armor Skills, Heraldry etc. Calculating the costs by myself by adding the costs for the individual skills would not be a problem. What I'd like to see is a small fixed DP discount to make these SPs a bit more attractive. They will probably often contain some skills which a player would never have developed for his character and a discount of 2 or 3 DPs could compensate for this.

Just my 2 cents

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

The general idea is to have each skill package (perhaps we ought to call them Vocational Packages) have somewhere between 4-6 specific costs. Each cost being based on the type of character learning it (i.e. there would be a cost for Warriors, Non-Spell Users, Pure Channelers, Pure Mages (essence users), etc..).

Items -- Why should they get a discount on purchasing items? I cannot see it, and it only makes skill packages more complicated than they have to be. Skill packages are for learning skills, not for giving price breaks for items. For that, you want things like Package Deals that RoCoI first introduced. There is nothing to say we cannot introduce that concept with a new implementation.

[Ecthelion]

The general idea is to have each skill package (perhaps we ought to call them Vocational Packages) have somewhere between 4-6 specific costs. Each cost being based on the type of character learning it (i.e. there would be a cost for Warriors, Non-Spell Users, Pure Channelers, Pure Mages (essence users), etc..).

Does it makes sense to state the costs at all? Such costs for certain groups pose the problem that implicitly some professions get a discount on some skills where their costs are above the group average and/or e.g. an Illusionist choosing a Vocational Package (VP) that includes some Stalk & Hide skills might pay more than usual when he gets to pay the DP price of the Pure Essence Users group (which usually have higher costs for these skills than an Illusionist).

Another problem, not related to fixed costs for VPs, is related to skills where two ranks, with different costs for the second rank, can be developed. This might be problematic when a character chooses a VP containing many skills where he normally is developing two ranks per level. E.g. for a Thief developing 2 ranks per level with his primary weapon (DP cost 2/7) a VP adding 2 ranks to one weapon skill would be worth 9 DPs. For another Thief that normally learns 1 rank per level the same package is only worth 4 DPs as he'd normally have taken the time to wait another level for the second rank. Which now is the correct DP cost for this package? Should perhaps VPs add a maximum of one skill rank? And even then a character adding another rank via normal skill development should probably pay the costs for the second skill rank or be forbidden to develop such a second rank if he normally can develop only one rank.

Just some food for thought...

Items -- Why should they get a discount on purchasing items? I cannot see it, and it only makes skill packages more complicated than they have to be. Skill packages are for learning skills, not for giving price breaks for items. For that, you want things like Package Deals that RoCoI first introduced. There is nothing to say we cannot introduce that concept with a new implementation.

Yeah, it probably has little additional value to add special rules for purchasing cheaper items with VPs and therefore only adds some useless rules. Just forget what I said  .

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Skill packages --
Some professions getting better discount on skill packages than others -- Yes, this will happen. The rules regarding this will be setup to keep this sort of thing to an absolute minimum, but with the way the RM system works, there is no way around that happening to at least a very minor degree other than doing a specific cost per package for each profession, and that just ain't gonna happen.

The folks working on this are not stupid, and this is part of what is being considered. Give them some credit at least.... 

The same applies for multiple ranks of a skill.

Items --
The problem isn't that discounted items have "little additional value", it is that they have too much. it leads down the path to power-gaming, and the skill packages will already cause enough temptation in that direction already. If we start allowing discounted items to be associated to a skill package, how long before somebody wants to include magical items, or non-magical bonus items, etc., etc.

And that is in addition to it causing more complex rules (because you then have to assign a DP value to the item, and to the discount it receives.).

Better to chop that one off at the knees. It is much more trouble than it is worth. Better to create package deals on items, similar to those found in RoCoI, that are NOT tied to any skill package or other set of rules that depend upon Development Points. Keep money issues with money issues and DP issues with DP issues.

[shnar]

I think items were originally included because it wasn't really a "skill" package, but a "training" package, which to me means a "background" option of sorts. To gain the skills in the package, you had to spend time doing whatever was about that package. For example, you had to spend time in the military to get the Soldier package, and doing so got you the skills, the items, etc., and nothing else (i.e. nothing you would normally get from adventuring, experience, other items, etc).

Makes sense if you think of it as a "background" package instead of a skill/training package I think...

-shnar