Author Topic: RMC or RMSS/RMFRP in my perspective...  (Read 10383 times)

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Offline David Johansen

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Re: RMC or RMSS/RMFRP in my perspective...
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2007, 05:56:03 PM »
RMSS Profession bonuses also contribute to the more capable RMSS level one characters I'm so fond of.

I also love training packages.  However, I loathe the discount.  Really you should get some XP with each TP and enough of them should bump you a level.

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: RMC or RMSS/RMFRP in my perspective...
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2007, 06:09:17 AM »
Category ranks + static profession bonuses ends up serving the same function as progressive level bonueses in RM2.

Sorry, but I don't think that this is true. Category bonuses serve the purpose to represent similarities between skills. And the static profession bonus is meant to replace the RM2 level bonus with a bonus that pronounces professional differences from the start but does not grow over time.

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While an RM2 fighter gets +3 level in weapon skills for life, a RMSS fighter starts with +20 then purchases ranks in "weapon category X" to get the rest.

But OTOH the RMSS Fighter develops skill ranks for his weapons with a progression of 3-2-1-0.5. The category progression of 2-1-0.5-0 only makes up for the reduced amounts in the skills progression. An RM2 Fighter OTOH will have his level bonus increase further and further, which lets his main OB often be in the range of ~165 at lvl. 20, while an RMSS Fighter at that point might have an OB of "only" 140 (I am assuming +20 stat bonus and 2 ranks per level and no item bonus).

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It does allow for a bit more customization than fixed bonuses, since you can choose where to spend your category ranks, but in the end 90% of spend is done within archetype, so the end result is the same, with a bit more paperwork.

Of course in cases where a character wants to develop a skill at maximum rate, he will also develop the category at maximum rate. But I have also had the case that characters have deliberately have developed only the skill and not the category or vice versa.

In the end I'd say that RMSS categories let you map skill similarities, but in the end the result does IMHO not justify the added complexity.

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: RMC or RMSS/RMFRP in my perspective...
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2007, 06:21:46 AM »
RMSS Profession bonuses also contribute to the more capable RMSS level one characters I'm so fond of.

Fully agreed. I also prefer the RMSS professional bonus over the RM2/RMC level bonus.

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I also love training packages.  However, I loathe the discount.

I also like TPs. They add to the characters background and they are also a good means for new player to more quickly generate a character. Just select one or two TPs and there are only a few DPs left where you have to think about where to place them.

The discount is a different matter. A TP always has some skills in it where the player thinks they are useless and the discount then is an incentive to choose the TP nevertheless. Therefore I think it is a good thing.

What is more problematic is that that skill costs like 1/5 make it difficult to calculate a fixed cost for a TP. Lets say you create a TP that only gives a character 4 ranks in a weapon skill. Not using any discount this TP will cost a Fighter, with skill costs for his primary weapon of 1/5, 4 DPs and a Magician, with skill costs of 9, 36 DPs. But if my Fighter wants to develop 2 ranks in his weapon every level - which I think is quite normal for a Fighter -, then each of the TP ranks is worth 5 DPs, i.e. the cost for the second skill rank, for him, not 1. So he gets ranks normally costing him 20 DPs for an investment of 4 DPs for the TP. This advantage is often much more important than the little discount of ~20% DPs.

Offline GoblynByte

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Re: RMC or RMSS/RMFRP in my perspective...
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2007, 07:04:02 AM »
Well, I got my RMC books in the mail earlier this week and I've been reading through them.  I gotta say it's pretty slick.  The books themselves are very nice and are organized far better than I remember the RM2 books (a common comment I see).  I miss the adolescent ranks being handled by culture, but, as mentioned before, I can't see any roadblocks to adding this factor.  The mess of options seems a bit overwhelming, but at least their listed separately so they don't get confused.

So, do I like it better than RMSS?  Hard to say.  I'll have to dig a little deeper and see.  RMSS's organization does have a certain "grace" to it, but RMC is a lot "lighter" (literally).  I like the fact, though, that RMC holds with RMSS's general organization philosophy and does not repeat information from one book to the next (at least not much).  That's something I didn't like about RMFRP.  With a system as rich as RM I like to know where to go to find what I need and don't need duplicate information in multiple books confusing the situation.

I'll read more and come back again. ;)
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Offline Marc R

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Re: RMC or RMSS/RMFRP in my perspective...
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2007, 12:23:41 PM »
Ecth,

"Similarities between skills"

If you don't think about it too much, and just look at what you have, there are three "similarity" mechanics in each version of RM:

RMC: Stat Bonuses, Level Bonuses (RM2 "Similar Skills")

RMSS: Stat Bonuses, Professional Bonuses, Category Skill Ranks.

I t'werent saying that all was the same, but that those all end up serving the same purposes. . . My personal opinion is that "Similar Skills" is a total mess, a sloppy bit of logic that rapidly got out of control. Too much in the way of free lunch, and a lot of complexity, and also the chained logic was never checked, so you ended up with some nonsense like 8 ranks of Dance giving you 1 rank in Undead Lore.

Those logic chains bore a lot of abuse. . .and anyone can make a halfway decent argument to extending them further. "Shouldn't my 10 ranks in rapier give me some ranks in Dance, since both rely on timing, footwork, and balance?"

I'm happy enough to see that bogie mostly dead. . .only appearence SS has made in RMC so far is in weapons.

OTOH, the RMSS attempt to "fix" similar skills with those categories may have been a mistake. It's my opinion that actually killing that hydra was the right course to take. . .I suspect that any honest assessment of the categories in which you may purchase ranks can identify skills that seem absurd in association, as well as skill pairs seperated in different categories that seem like they should hold great similarity but flatly do not, since they're not in the same category.

The logic of say, picking up Rapier and Dance in the same training package, and paying for both, makes a lot more sense. . ."My rapier instructor made us take dance lessons to improve our footwork, balance and timing."

I suspect, the word "Similar" boils down to "But I want it for free!". . . .players love to argue how they should have free ranks in skill X because they have 20 ranks in skill Y. "It just makes sense that if I can do this, I should naturally have some bleed over of skill into that." . . .funny how that logic never came up when the player was spending DP. . .rather than pick up a rank of Dance here and there, they instead chose to double buy Rapier every level and pick up an extra rank in Body Development.

The whole basis and logic behind a third layer of "Similarity" beyond Stat bonuses and professional/level bonuses, in my mind, boils down to pure greed. If you want a broader character with a more diverse skill set, perhaps you should spend your DP that way.

BTW, since the rules on level bonuses are mostly optional in RMC, you can always choose the "Fixed Bonus" option if you dinna like the mechanics of the progressive method. (We tried to open the door to new ideas, especially keeping in mind RMSS). If you go with "Base PP", "Base HP", "RMFRP Friendly Skill Categories", "Fixed Bonuses" and "Non random SLA by Individual Spells" the first level characters are probably a bit better grounded than you'd think if your experience is only with RM2, not RMC. (In fact, those characters may look a lot like RMSS characters). . . . We tried to incorporate any good ideas from RMSS/FRP into the system, mostly as options. . .only a fool would think 20+ years didn't produce a lot of good ideas.
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Offline markc

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Re: RMC or RMSS/RMFRP in my perspective...
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2007, 02:43:14 PM »
In an old game I think was based a lot on Rm2 we got armor bonuses for dancing. As the logic was it helped you move around better. Once again logic it may work but by how much and can you make 1 simple rule to fit every skill synergy.
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Offline GoblynByte

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Re: RMC or RMSS/RMFRP in my perspective...
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2007, 05:15:18 PM »
In an old game I think was based a lot on Rm2 we got armor bonuses for dancing. As the logic was it helped you move around better. Once again logic it may work but by how much and can you make 1 simple rule to fit every skill synergy.
MDC

This point, as well as LordMiller's, reminds me of some of the fuzzy logic that plagued the Storyteller system in Vampire.  You got a specialization once you got 4 ranks in something (if memory serves) and this specialization was little more than a descriptive term that determined "if you are using this skill to do something within that specialization, you get special considerations."  I can't remember what that special consideration was, but it almost became disgusting how players would try to come up with the broadest specialization term they could think of so that they could apply it to just about any action.

"My specialization for Dexterity based actions is "attacking" so any time I attack I get that benefit!"

"Yeah?  Well my specialization for Charmisa is for "speaking" so every time I open my mouth I get that benefit!"

Add to that the nebulous stat+skill formula for coming up with die pools, and the "free" nature of the game to let you come up with the combination that best fits the situation, and you have a munchkin's paradise.

"Why exactly would Wits+Repair work in this situation?"
"Heck, I don't know...I just know I have 5 in both!"

 ;D
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: RMC or RMSS/RMFRP in my perspective...
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2007, 03:47:41 AM »
LM, that was quite a good summary.

Offline shnar

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Re: RMC or RMSS/RMFRP in my perspective...
« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2007, 11:24:58 AM »
One thing I do like about RMSS, which is also something that existed in MERP and is one of my favorite features of HARP, is the fact that adolescent skills are based on race/culture rather than DPs.  If you don't take DPs so literally it isn't a problem, but I just think basing them on race/culture has a certain "flavor" benefit that I really like.  I'm not sure how RMC handles this (in comparison to RM2), but I think it might be a pretty easy thing to insert.  It would be far easier to insert that instead of removing skill catagories from RMSS. ;)

I always played RM2 in the Tolkien setting (can I say that on these boards?) and I agree, one of the best things from the-game-that-shall-not-be-named was the cultural stuff, from starting languages, to background points, to special abilities (which I always considered forced-background options), to adolescant development. After a campaign or two, our group just decided to use that for our character development. I think we simply took what was listed (modified for RM2) and then gave something like 20% of DPs for your own personal use.

Best thing about RM2/RMC and all incarnations of RM for that matter, is that it's YOUR game. Modify it to fit your needs. You must do what you feel is right, of course.

-shnar

Offline shnar

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Re: RMC or RMSS/RMFRP in my perspective...
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2007, 11:41:26 AM »
Those logic chains bore a lot of abuse. . .and anyone can make a halfway decent argument to extending them further. "Shouldn't my 10 ranks in rapier give me some ranks in Dance, since both rely on timing, footwork, and balance?"

One of Rolemaster's weaknesses, a rulesmaster nightmare. Any of your players min/maxers and they could wiggle all sorts of stuff out of RM2 if you included any of the companions (I always think of Brian from KoDT when I think of Rolemaster).

-shnar

Offline GoblynByte

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Re: RMC or RMSS/RMFRP in my perspective...
« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2007, 06:55:47 AM »
I've been going back and forth on this (still!) and it repeatedly is the skill system that is probably the one point of RMSS/FRP that I keep butting my head against.  I haven't found any real significant differences between most of the other aspects between RMC and RMFRP.  The skill system seems to be the only real game changing alteration between the two lines.

Someone mentioned a while back about some "thin" skill associations within the existing skill catagories and I guess I have to agree with that.  One catagory that I noticed a few significantly strange connections were in the Technical Trade - General catagory.  How much knowledge from Begging can bridge over to Sailing or Mapping?  I think the list of primary skills of RMC is a little thin (the secondary skills help, but they seem to be afterthoughts), so I really like the expanded skills provided in RMSS (if there wasn't something attractive about it I wouldn't be going to the trouble).  The skills provided in RMC are good for adventuring, but for more general roleplaying I think the expanded skills are more appropriate.

I know I'm picking a fine point here (one that's probably been beaten to death) and there is another thread discussing ways to fix this problem.  Once again I'm just "thinking" out loud in the hopes that this conversation will lead me to greater understanding. ;)

But let me take this thread in a slightly different direction... 
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Offline GoblynByte

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Re: RMC or RMSS/RMFRP in my perspective...
« Reply #51 on: August 15, 2007, 07:00:06 AM »
...Other than the skill system, what are the significant differences between RMC and RMFRP?  Has there been a point by point comparison of the differing aspects done before?  Can you think of any differences, positive or negative, that jump out at you in regards to combat or general action resolution?  I know everyone has an opinion about what works better or worse, so I'm really just looking for simple comparison rather than commentary.  My hope is not to egg on any grudges.  I seek knowledge.  ;D
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Offline Marc R

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Re: RMC or RMSS/RMFRP in my perspective...
« Reply #52 on: August 15, 2007, 10:27:19 AM »
How about these:

completed spell lists

Tactical combat round

Stat bonus scale

2 vs 3 stats per skill

Professional vs level bonuses

Epic power levels
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Offline GoblynByte

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Re: RMC or RMSS/RMFRP in my perspective...
« Reply #53 on: August 15, 2007, 10:41:15 AM »
How about these:

completed spell lists

Tactical combat round

Stat bonus scale

2 vs 3 stats per skill

Professional vs level bonuses

Epic power levels

All good! ;)  Thank you much!

What do you mean by "completed spell lists," though?

And I assume by "Epic power levels" you're referring to the relatively high skills of high level characters in RMC when compaired to similar characters in RMFRP, right?  I've heard of this, but have not had any experience in high levels to know first hand.

I'll look at all those points, though, and see which I like better in each.  Perfect input!

(I should point out my main reason for being so picky and really putting the finer details of both systems through the ringer: My group in general has a very poor opinion of RM, mostly from past experiences.  I've come to see it in a new light of late, however, and I want to present the possibility of trying the system again to see if our general perceptions are truly giving the system justice.  But I want to pick the version that will create the best impact.  I may only have one chance to make that first impression so I figure the more research I can do the better I'll be able to pick the version that best fits their style and taste.  Does that make sense?)
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Offline Marc R

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Re: RMC or RMSS/RMFRP in my perspective...
« Reply #54 on: August 15, 2007, 11:07:41 AM »
the RM companions began a trend toward "Complete" spell lists with no empty slots. RMSS Spell Law went back and applied this to the original core lists.

Epic Power scale is just that. . .RMSS is designed to prevent abuse, which also to a degree curtails epic level play. A comparisson of the Alchemy Companion to the Treasure Companion is a good for instance. another for instance: The combo of "Magical ritual" and "Over 50th level spells" in RM2 got out of hand, but most spell lists were tricked out to 100th or higher level E picks putting some serious epic power into concrete rules form.

These were usually abused more than used, but it was nice to be able to be able to build artifact level magic items without needing to resort to:

Q+skill2*Level  :angel5: Then a miracle happens :angel5: = magic item.

I realise that in the end a GM can do anything they want, but there's someone around here who often says "Never take anything from the players, it pisses them off" and despite the fact that I knew exactly why the epic end stuff was trimmed, it still irked me a bit.
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