Topic: RMC or RMSS/RMFRP in my perspective...

[GoblynByte]

I know similar threads have bee started, but none that really cover my perspective on this question...so I apologize for repeating a thread or possibly beating a dead horse...but here it goes... [grabbing mallet]

In a recent discussion on these boards I was brought to an increased interest in possibly expanding my game a bit.  To rehash my background, I started my relationship with ICE with MERP and later expanded with RM2.  I like MERP (coming from D&D the complexity and deadliness of the combat system was refreshing) and this enjoyment increased with RM2, but new members into the group (who were generally not as enthusiastic about that much detail) and a drift towards non-fantasy genres, pushed RM2 to the wayside.  Years later I picked up cheap, used copies of RMSS in an effort to learn more about it, but was completely troubled by the amount of time it took to develop characters.  I enjoy that much detail myself, but would NEVER be able to get my general group to go for it.  I then found HARP and fell in love.  It did everything I saw valuable in RM, but with a more streamlined method.

However, now I'm curious.  I seem to be drawn to RM like a train wreck.  I still can't quite place my finger on why I keep wanting to delve deeper into it when HARP does what it does (which is really all I ever need...so WHY am I drawn RM???).  Well, I'm the type of guy who likes to explore such things and want to try and consolidate my involvement in RM.  I want to see first hand what the attraction is.  This means playing.  This also means exploring the possiblity of "upgrading" my RM set.

I don't have my RM2 books anymore (sold them for crack...or othe RPGs, can't remember which).  I do have RMSS along with Arms Law and Spell law (for the RMSS rules system).  I really like the organization of these books (the fact that there is very little repeated information between these books is awesom) but for a new player it is a bit much.  Also, the complexity of RMSS (and I assume RMFRP) will be a problem when presented to my players.  I'm also having problems locating some essential products (I want the old RMSS GM Law and Creatures and Monsters, not the new RMFRP edition...just for nerdy reasons).  But if I can get them to buy into it, could it be better than RM2/RMC?

So, here's my question.  Should I buy new copies of RM2 on PDF, buy the upgraded RMC, stick with the RMSS that I have (and hunt down the two or three books I still need), or buy into RMFRP so that the players only need to buy the one, core book?

I hope all this makes sense.    Anyway, any input, even trivial input (hey, ya never know what might help), would be much appreciated. lol

[Ecthelion]

RMC is basically RM2 in an updated and partially re-edited version. I would always prefer RMC to old RM2 books. That leaves us with RMC, RMSS and RMFRP. The latter two are IMHO harder to learn for a new player than RMC. Therefore I would suggest to go with RMC. Using your RMSS Arms Law and Spell Law with RMC Character Law should work fine.

[yammahoper]

RMFRP is a reformatting of RMSS.  It is leaner, better organized and has a complete, if a bit truncated, version of RMSS in one book, with spells, combat and monsters even.  It is exactly the sort of approach ICE should maintain, whatever version the revision of RM brings us in the future (off soap box).

RPG books ARE crack for geeks like us.  As such, you will want as much crack as you can possibly afford...and maybe just a little more, if the rpg book/crack analogy is accurate and not just one more poor attempt at humor by yours truely.  Point; buy em all, enjoy the read, and what a nice bonus if they prove useful.

Beyond that I have no opinion...too cracked out.  Freebasing rpg's...the very term strikes me as hilarious.

Two rpg addicts; "Man, I love the flavor of RM books...the paper quality is awesome, and this maui wowie ink is awesome man..."

lynn

[Balhirath]

I have been through exactly the same line of thought and my conclusion was that I would buy the RMC books.
I still have most of the books for RM2, but as my players are new to the system they dont have them and, let's face it, so far real books are better than pdf. Besides it takes a lot of time to hunt down the RM2 books on Ebay or elsewhere.

As for teaching people the complexity of the system, here is what I normally do http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=4504.0
It might or might not be helpfull.

Ohh and Yammahoper is exactly right: For people/geeks like us, RPG books ARE crack.
I have a lot of books to systems that I have never even played, because said books contain something that I thought that I would use in some setting or another.

[GoblynByte]

RPG books ARE crack for geeks like us.  As such, you will want as much crack as you can possibly afford...and maybe just a little more, if the rpg book/crack analogy is accurate and not just one more poor attempt at humor by yours truely.  Point; buy em all, enjoy the read, and what a nice bonus if they prove useful.

I would do that (especially since I agree that RPG books can be entertaining even if you don't use them), but cost is a factor in this venture.  And I don't generally like buying books on PDF.  If I buy a game I like getting the purdy hardback books.  They make me happy.

[markc]

 I have found that the RMSS books in general are a cheeper way to go then RMFRP, because they do not try and do everthing in one book. Some of the harder books to find in print are the Essence Comp and the Martial Arts Comp and both can cost big $ in hardback. IMO it would be cheeper to buy the PDF and print your own.
 I have not taken a look at RMC but then I am not a big fan of RM2 as it does not do what I want it to do.
 I do agree that RMSS is more complex but in the end IMO it is worth it to put the time in so you get a bigger benifit in the end.
MDC

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I still can't quite place my finger on why I keep wanting to delve deeper into it when HARP does what it does (which is really all I ever need...so WHY am I drawn RM???).

Because we are  evil and have stolen your soul........



 

  <--Pennywise the Smiley

[Elton Robb]

Maybe it's because you subconsciously REALLY LIKE IT! 

[GoblynByte]

Well, let me put it this way...

It depends on what chair I'm sitting in.  As a player I enjoy very detailed character creation and a detailed tactical system.  As a GM I enjoy fast character creation and a short and sweet tactical system.

I'm okay with taking several hours to make a character if I only have to make one.  If I have to make a cast of many as a GM, however, I need to get the stats done fast and "cheap" so that I can get on to the good stuff.

I'm okay with fiddling with tactical detail if all I have to worry about is one character on the field.  If I have to manage multiple NPCs and be the narrator of the story in the process the rules better darn well stay out of my way.

I think RM fills my needs as a player, but as a GM I'm too busy to bother with it.

[Willen]

Well, I can share with you my experience as a RM GM... I read all the books, eventually came back to them, re-read chapters, etc... then put them all away and sat down to GM my group.
I know this is not for everyone, but when you get the "idea" behind the system, and your players are not too pesky about it, making calls on the fly with RM is really easy. You know the basic bonuses, have an idea have to run a disarm... who cares if the book says otherwise? You can always check it up later.

So my advice... GM as if you were a player. Just pretend to be a know-it-all. RM (in all its versions) is solid as rock in its foundations and with a little inspiration you can wing it without opening the books once (except for attack tables and spell descriptions, but you get the idea  ).

Don't get me wrong, I loved reading all the tables... but I'm sure I never used any of those RMSS skill charts or whatever, not even encounter tables, etc... it was fun sometimes to roll, but there's no need to it really.

So my advice: Get RM2 (RME for a taste of it, instead). Read it. Have your players create PCs and put it aside. Run a short adventure. If in doubt note it down and check it after the game. In a few sessions you will instintively know the right answer to most rules' questions 

[Marc R]

I want to thank all of the participants of this thread for utterly destroying my assumption that I needed to come and moderate some heads together just from the title. . .that you can have a mature discussion on the subject without getting nasty is a nice change from the usual.

I suspect that the two systems just appeal to two different styles of play. I don't find them on the whole to be all that different. (I have no problems lifting from one to the other on almost all levels)

I'd suggest to anyone just starting out to try RME first.

[markc]

 A note on NPC's, I just wing them. Thier is a table in RMSS that provides skill bonues for each profession at varous levels, so instant NPC's. If I need a skill not listed I just make a snap decision as to wwhat it should be and my players never know. The 1-100 roll forgives a lot of bad estimating for skill ranks. Also after creating and editing a lod of characters I sort of know what each one basicly looks like. I also have a simple rule that the person who tought me RM[2] used, a skill of 55 provides the basic knowledge to get a job below that and you need to know more above that and you are more skilled. This comes from taking an easy task +60, your skill score +55 and the lowest nonfumble 06 to get 111.
MDC

[Allen]

I still can't quite place my finger on why I keep wanting to delve deeper into it when HARP does what it does (which is really all I ever need...so WHY am I drawn RM???).

Because we are  evil and have stolen your soul........

OMG that was too funny!

True, but funny.

[GoblynByte]

After much deliberation, some independant research, and, most helpful, some VERY good advice from everyone here, I think I decided to try out RMC.

I saw no need to upgrad from RMSS (for which I already have three core books) to RMFRP.  The two systems are as close to identical as makes no odds, and I really prefer the organization of RMSS over RMFRP.  So that answered that portion of the quetion.

However, everytime I do crack open my RMSS materials to start creating a character I start to get dizzy.  I don't think of myself as a dullard by any stretch, but I just think of RMSS as far too much effort at this point.  I certainly may change my mind as time goes on, though, so I'll keep them handy.

So that left either RM2 or RMC.  As I said before, I don't have my RM2 materials anymore, and I generally prefer hardback books to PDFs, so looking into brand new, crisp copies of RMC is probably going to be the way to go.  Besides, those books are so darn purdy! 

Thanks again for all your help, everyone.  It's hard to decide such things because everyone presents such compelling debates on either side of the coin.  In the end, though, it comes down to personal preference and I just like a slightly more streamlined system than RMSS presents.

[Elton Robb]

Try JD Dale's spreadsheet next time.  It really cracked down the time it took to make a character.

[GoblynByte]

Try JD Dale's spreadsheet next time.  It really cracked down the time it took to make a character.

There is that.  And I have no solid objection to using that.  I've used the HARP version several times and I like it a lot.  The only thing that prevents from doing that very often, though, is simply a sense of nostalgia.  I'm a pencil and paper kind of guy when it comes to RPGs.  I use computers so much at work and at home and I use RPGs as a way of "unplugging" for a while.  So I'm a big proponent of a minimalist approach to the hobby.  That being said, I don't mind such spreadsheets as a convenience, but all but needing one simply to reduce chargen time down is a bit of a stretch for me.  I'd rather play a game that I can do without one and not let need dictate that decision.  Does that make sense?

[GoblynByte]

As an interesting addition to this thread I may have pinned down the one aspect that frustrates me about RMSS when compared to RM2.  It's the skill catagories.  To me this seems like a rather needless step to character creation that only serves to make skill management more of a task.  I can certianly understand the mechanical advantage to it, but it just doesn't seem to make that much of a difference to me.  I see it as just an added layer of complexity with no noteable benefit.  Sure, the spreadsheet would clear up a lot of the effort, but, again...(see last post)...

One thing I do like about RMSS, which is also something that existed in MERP and is one of my favorite features of HARP, is the fact that adolescent skills are based on race/culture rather than DPs.  If you don't take DPs so literally it isn't a problem, but I just think basing them on race/culture has a certain "flavor" benefit that I really like.  I'm not sure how RMC handles this (in comparison to RM2), but I think it might be a pretty easy thing to insert.  It would be far easier to insert that instead of removing skill catagories from RMSS.

Anway, just some thoughts.  I know the moderators are probably biting their nails waiting for this thread to degrade into a flame war, and I'm honestly not trying to pick a fight.  But nobody here has treated me with ill favor yet, and I simply enjoy talking out such details, so I see no reason to be gun shy. 

[Marc R]

who's got fingernails left, I was eating my fingertips.

[markc]

GB, the category and skill split is one of the reasons I like RMSS over RM2. I know it adds complexity but IMO it is well worth it for long term games.
 I also think thier is a big difference in long term games and short or a lot of 1-shot adventures games strung together for character creation. IMO if characters are too easy to create then people do not mind dieing to bring in a new character. But if thier are some limits then they try and make do or change thier character to do what they want. they may not be superman at everything but they still get the job done. I have also seen this increase interdependance amoungst the group and all in all provide a positive experience.
MDC

[GoblynByte]

GB, the category and skill split is one of the reasons I like RMSS over RM2. I know it adds complexity but IMO it is well worth it for long term games.

Hmmm...that's a perspective I'm not able to take advantage of...yet.   That is somethig to consider, though.

The down side to my "journey" in exploring the RMC and RMSS is that I have yet to actually try any of them in actual play (except MERP and RM2 a long time ago).  Most of my frustrations haven't even gotten past the character creation phase. lol

One thing I still want to try, though, with RMSS is use the character sheets in the Character Records book.  I think the expanded skill worksheets will help keep things organized a bit better.

I also think thier is a big difference in long term games and short or a lot of 1-shot adventures games strung together for character creation. IMO if characters are too easy to create then people do not mind dieing to bring in a new character. But if thier are some limits then they try and make do or change thier character to do what they want. they may not be superman at everything but they still get the job done. I have also seen this increase interdependance amoungst the group and all in all provide a positive experience.
MDC

I can certainly see that as well.  Though, the guys I usually game with put so much effort into their characters outside the technical aspects that they still value them pretty highly.  No matter what system we use (from simple to complex) they still start sharpening their axes when I kill off a character.