Author Topic: average level for a nobody ?  (Read 1808 times)

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Offline MisterK

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average level for a nobody ?
« on: April 11, 2022, 01:15:50 PM »
What would be the average level for someone who does not go on the straight and narrow heroic path (or any adventuring path, really), by age ?

We know that a person straight out of apprenticeship is level 1. let's assume they are 16 when that happens.

If nothing special happens (just everyday life with its load of small events in a fantasy setting), what would be the person's level when they are 20 ? 30 ? 40 ? What would be the maximum level they can expect to be before old age slows them down too much ? Is it a linear progression (1 level every x years), or geometric (one level after 1 year, another after two more years, another after 5 more years...), or something else ?

And does this change according to race ? Can Laan, for instance, hope to gain more levels than Shay before the Reaper strikes ? Can dwarves expect even more ? And can the immortal elves expect even more, being what they are ?

[remember : no extraordinary event, no going on adventure, nothing but what you would expect from your average citizen]

Offline Hurin

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Re: average level for a nobody ?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2022, 01:50:20 PM »
RMU gives some good guidelines for this (p. 185 of the core book, in a little chart):

Level 1 = pre-teenager
Level 2 = teenager
Level 3 = young adult
Level 4 = adult

They also give a little more guidance for each level (e.g. a level 4 would be a senior apprentice, a level 5 a journeyman, which implies a master would be another level or more above that).
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: average level for a nobody ?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2022, 03:36:40 PM »
Age has always seemed like a really horrible benchmark for level to me.  I guess if you have ABSOLUTELY nothing that you care about in terms of a random person walking down the street maybe that's a good half-assed way to work it... but if you don't care anything about them and it's just some random person that means nothing to the game, why does it even matter what level they are?  For some reason any random schmuck that's spent their life possibly sitting around doing nothing, picking potatoes from a field, shoveling out horse stalls, etc,. has gained levels in, what? Anything? Simply for breathing X number of years. Yeah, no.  Just plain silly.

First, I'd decide what that individual actually is; Farmer, merchant, city guard, adventurer, whatever.
Then I'd gauge their level by what the person has actually done.  Sure you might be a city guard, but for how long?  Maybe you shoveled the horse stalls in the garrison for years first.
Lvl 1 = No experience
Lvl 2 = Beginner
Lvl 3 = Novice
Lvl 4 = Apprentice
Lvl 5 = Journeyman
Lvl 6 = Expert
Lvl 7 = Master

The other thing to consider is, does it really matter?  Not as it what level they are, but as in is that actually going to come into play?

First the combat outlook.  If they aren't going to be in a fight, it just doesn't matter.  If they are, I'd refer back to the above.

For non-combat, if the characters go to town and ask a Armor-smith to repair their armor, are you actually going to roll dice?
The way I'd look at it is I'm not going to waste my time with that unless I actually want the Armor-smith to have the potential not help the party.
And if I do want the Armor-smith to fail and not help the party... am I actually going to roll for that, or just tell them he failed because it's a plot device?
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Offline Wolfwood

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Re: average level for a nobody ?
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2022, 04:42:25 AM »
RMU gives some good guidelines for this (p. 185 of the core book, in a little chart):
Level 1 = pre-teenager
Level 2 = teenager
Level 3 = young adult
Level 4 = adult
So, all those lvl1 characters that we've started our games with have been pre-teenagers? :o I would have thought a young adult to be lvl 1 and then go up from there...

Offline Hurin

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Re: average level for a nobody ?
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2022, 08:41:20 AM »
RMU gives some good guidelines for this (p. 185 of the core book, in a little chart):
Level 1 = pre-teenager
Level 2 = teenager
Level 3 = young adult
Level 4 = adult
So, all those lvl1 characters that we've started our games with have been pre-teenagers? :o I would have thought a young adult to be lvl 1 and then go up from there...

Essentially, yes. Remember that RMU does not have a level 0, so in comparison to RM2, level 1 = level 0.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline jdale

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Re: average level for a nobody ?
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2022, 09:57:20 AM »
RMSS/RMFRP characters are pretty competent right out of the gate. I think normal people in those systems should be mostly 1st-3rd or so. Whereas in RMU up to 5th or 6th can be reasonable. Exceptional individuals of course can be higher.

Regardless of the system, I think it's best to assume that normal people in a stable environment don't gain any meaningful amount of XP. So they reach some level getting to the point they need to be, and then absent any special drive for self-improvement don't advance to any significant degree beyond that. That's true whether you are a short-lived human or a long-lived elf.

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Offline Hurin

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Re: average level for a nobody ?
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2022, 10:25:11 AM »
One last point I would make is that medieval notions of age are a bit different than ours. Apprentices were often very young, with apprenticeships often beginning around age 12. Many medieval people were doing things we would consider fully adult well before they left their teens. Many girls were married by the time they were 16. I like to tell my RMU players that their first level characters are essentially Harry Potters on their first visit to Hogwarts.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline MisterK

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Re: average level for a nobody ?
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2022, 12:17:23 PM »
Regardless of the system, I think it's best to assume that normal people in a stable environment don't gain any meaningful amount of XP. So they reach some level getting to the point they need to be, and then absent any special drive for self-improvement don't advance to any significant degree beyond that. That's true whether you are a short-lived human or a long-lived elf.
I'm not sure I can agree with that. As long as your brain is functional and you're not a listless couch potato, you learn all the time. Not much, but you do learn all the time. Even the blacksmith that blacksmithes from their youth to their retirement age learns something new all the time. It might be social knowledge, it might be tales from afar, it might be a hard lesson for having been swindled for lower quality iron, it might be simply the vagaries of raising children to the best of their abilities, but I can't accept that they don't learn anything.

In a level-less system, I would simply adjust skills to what I think is accurate according to their social position, environment, and professional expertise. But a level-based system, even one that provides skill allocation flexibility like RM, ties skill development to level.

thus my question.

Granted, it is technically more useful for rank and file NPCs that might see action (not necessarily combat, but action in some way) when I pick them up and throw them into the fray - you never know when the city watch of the sleepy town the PCs amble through will be caught in a dragon-breathing firestorm that *certainly would never have happened if the strangers hadn't been here*... and the military charts in almost every RM campaign module go my brain running (especially since they assign level as a function of rank, which does not make much sense to me in military structures where officers are often appointed because of their social status and not their combat experience...).

Offline jdale

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Re: average level for a nobody ?
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2022, 12:32:57 PM »
While it's true that learning doesn't really stop, levels represent very broad development in all of your skills plus improvements to some or all of your stats not to mention improved resilience to magic, disease, and poison. So I'm really just saying that the amount of additional learning falls well short of that.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: average level for a nobody ?
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2022, 01:04:19 PM »
While it's true that learning doesn't really stop, levels represent very broad development in all of your skills plus improvements to some or all of your stats not to mention improved resilience to magic, disease, and poison. So I'm really just saying that the amount of additional learning falls well short of that.
Agreed somewhat (not really for the "broad development in all of your skills", since skill development is by definition focused in RM) - but then, you are stuck with skills not improving at all, which is wrong as well.

This would lead to the option to have skill development without level increase, and level increase without skill development ? I used the former in a campaign (the characters were going through a very academic period, increasing a number of lore and language skills to the exclusion of everything else - I just gave out skill ranks without levels), but this is a significant departure from standard rules - even Training Packages in RMSS/FRP require spending DPs.

Offline jdale

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Re: average level for a nobody ?
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2022, 01:17:50 PM »
What's the problem you're trying to solve, though? Is it that the NPC does not have the necessary skill bonus to fill the role you need them to fill? Then assign them the level they need. Is it that the rules don't adequately model the skill development of low-skill ordinary-person NPCs? Why should they? The rules are for PCs and adversaries. Is there some reason you need to track the gradual long-term development of low-skill ordinary people? If so, you could do sub-level progression and dole them out a few DP, but for the vast majority of campaigns it's never going to be relevant.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: average level for a nobody ?
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2022, 11:57:29 PM »
Is it that the rules don't adequately model the skill development of low-skill ordinary-person NPCs? Why should they? The rules are for PCs and adversaries.
Ah, I see where the issue is.

As far as I'm concerned, the rules are for *everyone* - PCs and all NPCs alike.

Because I never know when a nobody will become someone of interest.

And besides, I'd like to know the skill and level spread of the city watch, and those of the local gangs, and the aristocrats who have more pride than common sense, and so on. You know, potential allies and opponents that do not know when they will have to make a cameo or take center stage.

And I don't subscribe to the theory that the rules are only for PCs and adversaries. After all, even RMC 1 had a section about populating towns, with a profession and level spread. As far as I understood it, it included *everyone*, not merely adversaries.

Offline Wolfwood

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Re: average level for a nobody ?
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2022, 06:56:14 AM »
One last point I would make is that medieval notions of age are a bit different than ours. Apprentices were often very young, with apprenticeships often beginning around age 12. Many medieval people were doing things we would consider fully adult well before they left their teens. Many girls were married by the time they were 16. I like to tell my RMU players that their first level characters are essentially Harry Potters on their first visit to Hogwarts.
That's a good description. In Sweden, around the 16th/17th century, apprenticeships began at the age of 15 and an apprentice had to pass a journeyman exam to gain the freedom to seek their fortunes - BUT even when they passed the exam, they still owed one additional year of service to their master before they could leave (to pay back for their training, basically, and give the master time to find a new apprentice). So, if we follow real-world examples and want the characters to be free of their service to a master, i.e. journeymen, they should be around 18 and at about level 3-4.

Offline MisterK

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Re: average level for a nobody ?
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2022, 10:54:21 AM »
To be honest, my very sketchy rule of thumb about "everyday accumulation of experience" would have gone with a geometric scale. Say, if (I use RMFRP reference), you're level 1 at the end of apprenticeship (with Adolescence ranks being allocated by culture and social status), you would gain a level after 1 year, another after 2 more years, another after 4 more, and so on.

A 20-year-old who has led a normal life would be level 2-3. A 60-year-old Shay that has led a normal life would be around level 6.

Shay would likely end up around level 6-7 depending on how they age. Laan would end up 1-2 levels higher, dwarves one more. Elves, being immortal, would have no theoretical level limit, but an elf who 'd have led a "normal life" all through the Third Era would  be around level 13-14 (and no elf would have led a "normal life" for more than one Era, because the Wars of Dominion would have disrupted everybody's 'normal life' one way or another).

And I was wondering if it sounded about reasonable or completely outlandish.

Offline Hurin

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Re: average level for a nobody ?
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2022, 05:56:30 PM »

And I was wondering if it sounded about reasonable or completely outlandish.

Seems reasonable to me.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle