Author Topic: Maximum Base Power Points  (Read 1153 times)

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Offline Elrich Maltah

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Maximum Base Power Points
« on: March 02, 2022, 08:40:50 PM »
In Spell User's Companion section 6.3 there is a chart of maximum base PPs given for each race and realm combination, ranging anywhere from 120 for Stout Halfling Essence users to 290 Fair Elf Mentalism users. The instructions for the table (somewhat emphatically) state that they are only the base maximums and may be higher depending on the primary magic stat bonus. It further states that the total power points are determined by using the rules in RMCII 3.1 and 7.0, which talk about the Power Point Development skill.

The problem that I find is that in those same referenced sections the term "Base Power Points" is already defined as being the temporary stat for power points divided by 10. If this is true, then the only way that a Fair Elf Mentalism user could hope to reach his base maximum of 290 would be to have a temporary Presence stat of 2900.

When I presented this scenario to my GM, he suggested that the maximums listed in the chart make more sense to be those achieved through Power Point Development, which I agree with. It'd still be a long haul to reach those maximums through that method, but it's at least more conceivable. And you'd still have multipliers and adders on top of that.

Does this interpretation seem reasonable, or is there some other rule/definition I've missed somewhere that would explain it better?

Offline MisterK

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Re: Maximum Base Power Points
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2022, 11:40:21 PM »
Maybe the apparent discrepancy is because "base" and "base maximum" are two different things:
- "base power points" is the number of PP you have without any development.
- "base maximum power points" is the maximum number of PP you have with a +0 bonus from stat.

So your actual maximum is your base maximum plus the bonus from stat.

At least, that's how I understand it.

Offline Tywyll

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Re: Maximum Base Power Points
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2022, 04:38:44 AM »
Maybe the apparent discrepancy is because "base" and "base maximum" are two different things:
- "base power points" is the number of PP you have without any development.
- "base maximum power points" is the maximum number of PP you have with a +0 bonus from stat.

So your actual maximum is your base maximum plus the bonus from stat.

At least, that's how I understand it.

Yeah, this is absolutely how I read it.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Maximum Base Power Points
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2022, 08:53:06 AM »
Yes, it looks like that section of the SUC is trying to do for Power Points what the core Character Law rules did for Hit Points. Note how character law has a column 'Maximum # of hits (average Constitution)' on the Race Abilities Table (15.5.1). I think the chart in the SUC is meant to fit beside that, essentially.

So, just as hit points are set to a maximum by race, but that maximum is adjusted for stat bonuses, so too Power Points are meant to work that way in the SUC.
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Offline Elrich Maltah

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Re: Maximum Base Power Points
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2022, 09:29:15 AM »
Maybe the apparent discrepancy is because "base" and "base maximum" are two different things:
- "base power points" is the number of PP you have without any development.
- "base maximum power points" is the maximum number of PP you have with a +0 bonus from stat.

So your actual maximum is your base maximum plus the bonus from stat.

At least, that's how I understand it.

(Was typing this while Hurin responded.)

Yes, I suppose that would be a reasonable way to read it. However, I've never found any rule or option previously published where your PPs include the stat bonus added directly to a total, including the section in RMCII that defines "Base" as separate from "Developed" power points.

So, following the logic presented here, if I extend out the most generous stat bonus chart (RMCI 4.8, option 2), with the High Elf's racial PR mod, it would take a temp stat of 147 to reach the 290 maximum listed in the chart. (147/10) = 15 + 260 (stat bonus) + 15 (racial mod) = 290

On the opposite end, the Essence-using Stout Halfling would need a temp stat of 119 to reach his maximum of 120. (119/10) = 12 + 120 (stat bonus) -10 (racial mod) = 122 (capped to 120)

Now, if the same calculations were made incorporating PP Development, we get something more reasonable and likely to be used in actual gameplay. If the High Elf Mentalist has a PR stat of 102 and took PP Dev for 51 levels (including adolescence) we get the following: (102/10) = 10 + 35 (stat bonus) + 15 (racial mod) + 204 (4pp * 51) = 264. If he has a PR stat of 104, he would be maxed out by the time he reaches level 43. (The Stout Halfling with an EM stat of 102 would be maxed out by level 21.)

(After Hurin's response.)

Yes, I agree that this appears to be an attempt to create parity between the primary usefulness metrics for spell and non-spell users. However, the racial maximums for hit points are always reached by the inclusion of Body Development rolls (ChL 3.8, RMCII 7.0), though the CO stat bonus is not added directly to the base hit points. It is added as a percentage multiplier after the fact, which is an option listed in RMCII 3.1 for the spell-based stats, and would decrease the totals given in the above examples. For true parity, the racial power point maximums should, in my mind, also include Power Point Development gains, which the instructions in SUC fail to mention.

Offline Elrich Maltah

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Re: Maximum Base Power Points
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2022, 10:05:53 AM »
So, to follow up, true parity between hit points and power points ought to make instructions for calculating power points as follows:

1. Start with a base power point total equal to the appropriate realm temporary stat divided by 10 (rounded up). (Hybrid users and Archmages average their stats.)

2. Each time the Power Point Development skill rank is increased by one, add the appropriate number of power points to the base power point total, up to the racial maximum. (Hybrid users and Archmages average their stats to determine the power points.)

3. The total power points = [BPP + (BPP x realm stat bonus / 100)] x power point multiplier. (Hybrid users and Archmages apply the bonus from their averaged stats.)

Offline Hurin

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Re: Maximum Base Power Points
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2022, 10:52:39 AM »

Yes, I suppose that would be a reasonable way to read it. However, I've never found any rule or option previously published where your PPs include the stat bonus added directly to a total, including the section in RMCII that defines "Base" as separate from "Developed" power points...

However, the racial maximums for hit points are always reached by the inclusion of Body Development rolls (ChL 3.8, RMCII 7.0), though the CO stat bonus is not added directly to the base hit points. It is added as a percentage multiplier after the fact, which is an option listed in RMCII 3.1 for the spell-based stats, and would decrease the totals given in the above examples. For true parity, the racial power point maximums should, in my mind, also include Power Point Development gains, which the instructions in SUC fail to mention.


Yes, I think they intended that the racial power point maximums should also include the PPDev skill gains. That makes the system for racial PP maximums more parallel to the system for racial HP maximums, which is clearly the intent of the new rules presented here (Companion II even mentioned that there could be PP racial maximums when they say 'Upper limits can be placed on the number of Power Points learnable by a given race (similar to Body Development).', so the SUC is just providing them finally). 

Note too that PP can also be affected by PP multiplier items, so I think this might be why they talk of the 'base maximum' numbers. That is, they mean the number before any multipliers are taken into account. The word 'base maximum' here means not base in the sense of 'realm stat/10', but base in the sense of 'base before any multipliers are considered', and that includes 'base' (in the first sense of the word) + learned.

'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Elrich Maltah

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Re: Maximum Base Power Points
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2022, 11:56:58 AM »

Yes, I suppose that would be a reasonable way to read it. However, I've never found any rule or option previously published where your PPs include the stat bonus added directly to a total, including the section in RMCII that defines "Base" as separate from "Developed" power points...

However, the racial maximums for hit points are always reached by the inclusion of Body Development rolls (ChL 3.8, RMCII 7.0), though the CO stat bonus is not added directly to the base hit points. It is added as a percentage multiplier after the fact, which is an option listed in RMCII 3.1 for the spell-based stats, and would decrease the totals given in the above examples. For true parity, the racial power point maximums should, in my mind, also include Power Point Development gains, which the instructions in SUC fail to mention.


Yes, I think they intended that the racial power point maximums should also include the PPDev skill gains. That makes the system for racial PP maximums more parallel to the system for racial HP maximums, which is clearly the intent of the new rules presented here (Companion II even mentioned that there could be PP racial maximums when they say 'Upper limits can be placed on the number of Power Points learnable by a given race (similar to Body Development).', so the SUC is just providing them finally). 

Note too that PP can also be affected by PP multiplier items, so I think this might be why they talk of the 'base maximum' numbers. That is, they mean the number before any multipliers are taken into account. The word 'base maximum' here means not base in the sense of 'realm stat/10', but base in the sense of 'base before any multipliers are considered', and that includes 'base' (in the first sense of the word) + learned.

Thanks for the feedback, Hurin. It would've been nice to get a little more of this same clarification in the published section, but I get the impression they were tight on physical space on the page for exposition and instruction, and had to make some sacrifices for brevity's sake.

On a related note, one part of the parity not yet discussed, and which has no direct equivalent for power points, is the Body Development professional bonus. My GM has always included it in the calculation for base hits when the Body Dev points are added, but I've never seen any specific rule indicating that's where it's supposed to go. I suppose it's implied to be used there since that's the closest to an actual "skill bonus" that it can get. Otherwise, what else would its point be for existing?

Offline Hurin

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Re: Maximum Base Power Points
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2022, 02:10:26 PM »

On a related note, one part of the parity not yet discussed, and which has no direct equivalent for power points, is the Body Development professional bonus. My GM has always included it in the calculation for base hits when the Body Dev points are added, but I've never seen any specific rule indicating that's where it's supposed to go. I suppose it's implied to be used there since that's the closest to an actual "skill bonus" that it can get. Otherwise, what else would its point be for existing?

Yes, we always just added the BD professional bonus to the base hits in order to get the total hits.

You are right that in the written descriptions of the BD skill in the core Character Law book, as well as in Companion II, there is nothing about adding the professional bonus.

However, in the charts in Character Law (15.7.2, Level Bonus Table, p. 87) and Companion II (11.6, Master Level Bonus, p. 102) there is a column for 'Body Dev.'. Moreover, it is clear that the intent was that professional bonuses in Body Development would add hits. Crucial to cite here is the footnote to the aforementioned chart in Character Law, which says:

Body Dev.: Applies to the number of 'hits' obtained by each Body Development skill rank.

So actually, a character that took two ranks in BD in a level should be getting a double bonus!

One final thing to note is that the new edition of Rolemaster (RMU) now formalizes this professional bonus by making it explicitly apply to hits (since hits are now just the Body Development skill bonus + racial modifier).
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Elrich Maltah

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Re: Maximum Base Power Points
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2022, 11:21:12 PM »

On a related note, one part of the parity not yet discussed, and which has no direct equivalent for power points, is the Body Development professional bonus. My GM has always included it in the calculation for base hits when the Body Dev points are added, but I've never seen any specific rule indicating that's where it's supposed to go. I suppose it's implied to be used there since that's the closest to an actual "skill bonus" that it can get. Otherwise, what else would its point be for existing?

Yes, we always just added the BD professional bonus to the base hits in order to get the total hits.

You are right that in the written descriptions of the BD skill in the core Character Law book, as well as in Companion II, there is nothing about adding the professional bonus.

However, in the charts in Character Law (15.7.2, Level Bonus Table, p. 87) and Companion II (11.6, Master Level Bonus, p. 102) there is a column for 'Body Dev.'. Moreover, it is clear that the intent was that professional bonuses in Body Development would add hits. Crucial to cite here is the footnote to the aforementioned chart in Character Law, which says:

Body Dev.: Applies to the number of 'hits' obtained by each Body Development skill rank.

So actually, a character that took two ranks in BD in a level should be getting a double bonus!

One final thing to note is that the new edition of Rolemaster (RMU) now formalizes this professional bonus by making it explicitly apply to hits (since hits are now just the Body Development skill bonus + racial modifier).

It's good to know that RMU will finally codify those Body Dev rules so they're not so hard to find or interpret.

And that footnote about the level bonus is positively juicy! I'm not sure my GM noticed that before, since that's definitely not how our character spreadsheet is calculated. Thanks for pointing that out.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Maximum Base Power Points
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2022, 08:50:31 AM »

And that footnote about the level bonus is positively juicy! I'm not sure my GM noticed that before, since that's definitely not how our character spreadsheet is calculated. Thanks for pointing that out.

No worries! As an historian, I am obligated to read the footnotes  ;D
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle