Author Topic: Question about weapon kata  (Read 1037 times)

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Offline Elrich Maltah

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Question about weapon kata
« on: December 12, 2021, 11:15:15 AM »
I'm considering the option of taking a weapon kata on my character, but also still training in dagger normally. The issue I foresee, however, comes when calculating the number of kata hits (= normal MA hits + (Max weapon hits vs. AT) - (Max MA hits vs. AT)). This is because dagger (or knife, the recommended kata of at least 50 OB) naturally does less max damage than martial arts strikes, which would result in a negative modifier. This is also true for other weapons, such as main gauche, rapier, and short sword.

How should this situation be resolved? My GM suggested using the absolute value of the calculation, but that seems to completely upend the point of a weapon kata, other than simply to add more crits. The examples in the books, morning star (ALCL p.29) and war hammer (RMC5 p.11) sidestep this issue by using weapons that give more max damage than MA strikes.

Offline Elrich Maltah

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Re: Question about weapon kata
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2021, 09:22:00 AM »
As a follow-up to my question, I looked at other versions of RM to see how they addressed this.

Neither RMC nor RMFRP provide the option of weapon kata because they don't have any special rules for martial arts beyond the basic strikes, sweeps, grappling, tackling, etc.

RMSS's Martial Arts Companion does provide details for weapon kata for martial arts when it is developed as part of a martial arts style attack.  It employs the same -20 OB modification as RM2 rules, but the attacks are resolved on the normal weapon attack chart with normal weapon crits. This seems more straightforward to me rather than calculating the difference between the attack types, but still doesn't resolve in my mind the issue for my character.

Has the idea of weapon kata been considered for inclusion in RMU? If so, how are the attacks resolved: on the normal weapon chart, as a mix of MA and weapon damage, or something else?

Offline Hurin

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Re: Question about weapon kata
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2021, 11:26:34 AM »

Has the idea of weapon kata been considered for inclusion in RMU?

Yes, though katas are treated the same IIRC as other multiple weapon attacks. The rules specifically for katas are on p. 87 of the Beta 2 RMU pdf (Arms and Character Law). You get inherent penalties for making multiple attacks, but skill in the Multiple Attacks skill can offset these penalties. You have to have one limb able to attack for each different type of attack you make (so you could for example have a club in one hand and nothing in the other, allowing you to make a club and then a Strikes attack). You do separate attacks resolutions for each limb, using separate charts (e.g. club and Strikes) so there are no longer any separate calculations for a kata attack.

In response to your original question though, for me, the main point of the kata in RM2 was to do the extra crits; if you also did extra hits, that was just a nice bonus, but the real value was in the extra crits, and as you note some weapons actually did less hits than Strikes.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Question about weapon kata
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2021, 11:55:10 AM »
In the RMSS Martial Arts Companion version, there is the underlying issue that unarmed attacks are really great, and in many respects better than weapons. Resolving the attack on the weapon's attack table is the logical way of handling the attack, but it is actually a detriment in many cases. You do still gain the benefits that you can use a weapon with a bonus and it might be preferable against foes who are not safe to touch (e.g. undead, fire elementals), but it's not something you would do all the time (typically).

In RMU, we are using the term katas for something different, which is more about training yourself for elaborate forms that incorporate attacks either with multiple weapons or with multiple parts of the body -- in either case, it's really about making multiple attacks.

The idea of using your unarmed combat skills to make attacks using weapons (which is what weapon katas refer to in previous editions) will be introduced in the RMU Character Companion (as a feature of fighting styles). The attacks will be resolved on the weapon's attack table (with a penalty). Because the tables have been reworked and bare hands are no longer super weapons, this will actually be beneficial in most cases.

I have a PC in one of my current campaigns who is using sweeps & throws plus a metal whip, as part of his fighting style. He doesn't deal the most damage but he inflicts a lot of criticals and is able to keep foes locked down pretty effectively.
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Offline netbat

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Re: Question about weapon kata
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2021, 05:21:41 PM »
You could use the combat companion version of adding the kata. It costs a set DP amount to add a weapon kata to the MA based on the weapon, has a required tier and # of ranks before you can add it, adds between 4 and 12 hits depending on the weapon and allows the use of an alternate crit type at one level lower based on the weapon. Some weapons also specify equal crit or other bonuses as well(Quarterstaff for example).
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Question about weapon kata
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2021, 06:13:06 PM »
RMU doesn't need any special rules for attacking with weapon using an Unarmed attack skill, though it could use some additional guidelines. The skill is in attacking with the human (elf, dwarf, goblin...) body, while the weapon is an extension of the body. It's a case of similar skills, just a matter of how much similarity.
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Offline Elrich Maltah

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Re: Question about weapon kata
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2021, 12:15:42 AM »
Thanks for the feedback, guys. It's given me some good insight into the different methods that have been implemented for doing this.

You could use the combat companion version of adding the kata.

Sadly, I've not been able to find a copy of Combat Companion yet, either for this or for another project I'd been working on.  :'(

Offline Boromir

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Re: Question about weapon kata
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2021, 04:26:05 AM »
You can buy RMC Combat Companion:  https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/188371/ERA-for-Rolemaster-RMC-Combat-Companion

But there is also RM2 Arms Companion: https://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/43608/arms-companion but it is out of print.

Offline Elrich Maltah

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Re: Question about weapon kata
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2021, 11:08:05 AM »
Sorry, I meant that I hadn't found a physical copy of Combat Companion yet. I've also not yet ventured into the world of ERA, though that does seem to be where most of the options for older material lie now.

My GM has physical copies of most everything from back in the day, including Arms Companion, so he's been my source of info so far.

Offline jdale

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Re: Question about weapon kata
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2021, 01:22:46 PM »
RMU doesn't need any special rules for attacking with weapon using an Unarmed attack skill, though it could use some additional guidelines. The skill is in attacking with the human (elf, dwarf, goblin...) body, while the weapon is an extension of the body. It's a case of similar skills, just a matter of how much similarity.

True, but penalties would be -50 to -100 (-50 for "same category, different skill", additional -0 to -50 for level of similarity) and largely left to the opinion of the GM. That's the sort of thing you might do in a pinch but it's not terribly functional. For comparison, the penalty in the RMSS Martial Arts Companion is -20.

Talents and abilities that reduce similarity penalties work with those existing rules but give characters options to generalize.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Question about weapon kata
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2021, 11:38:33 AM »
If you want to keep it simple I'd just use the martial arts OB and the dagger attack table.  The character is benefiting from having a skill that does not require a weapon but is still highly effective in most combat situations and the perceived penalty of the dagger table being less effective is the drawback of having the option to use it with that OB.

I, however, question that the dagger is less effective.  Without actually looking at the attack table my guess is it's just different (i.e. against certain AT's some attacks do damage faster, some do crits faster, etc).
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Offline brole

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Re: Question about weapon kata
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2021, 06:43:28 AM »
Weapon kata attack will allow the special martial arts option to swap OB for initiative points.

Also I think it allows character to use adrenal defence while wielding a weapon, as this normally can't happen.

I use normal chart for weapon being used instead of all the calculating, but still use the modifiers. e.g. -20

I cap the rank of the weapon kata attack to the rank of the weapon or martial arts highest tier rank which ever is lower.
e crits all round