Topic: What is a great superhero RPG?

[Bruce]

I am looking to run a superhero game with my HARP players. There are a lot of choices out there and I want to make the right one.
I need a game that is relatively easy to learn, and easy to play. I don't need complex.
The players will probably be running multiple characters with a set at a high power level and a set at a low power level, with possibly more than one at the low power level.
To be honest some of my best RPG years were with my friends in the 80's playing the original Marvel Superheroes. I was thinking of using that system but I'd like something a little more complete and with a fluid set of game mechanics. One of my players recommended "Mutants and Materminds", which sounds great and looks simple but it is d20, and I am not really a fan of d20. But I will go that route if that is the best choice.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Bruce

[vroomfogle]

I would highly recommend Savage Worlds.  Especially if you are looking for something easy to pick up.  There are a couple super-hero settings out there for it, as well as a super-heroes companion.  I've used Necessary Evil which was great fun - the world has been taken over by aliens who killed or captured most of the super-heroes, leaving the super-villains to save the day (the player characters).

[Thom @ ICE]

I've tried:
Heroes
Champions
Villains & Vigilantes
Mutants & Masterminds


I'd love to get time enough to make SHARP (Super-Hero Action Role Playing) based upon HARP, but that hasn't happened yet.


Until then - my vote would definitely be Mutants & Masterminds.

[Bruce]

Well it looked as though I was going to go with Marvel Super Heroes, at least the netbook expert version. I found a site that has everything I need plus a few extras. But, alas, I discovered it is a d20 conversion. Which is a huge negative IMHO. Though it might not be that hard to convert everything over to a percentile system like the original.
Anyone here know enough about d20 to offer advice? Can I simply multiply everything by 5 to get percentage results/DC/modifiers? Or are there more detailed conversions needed.

Bruce

[Bruce]

I'd love to get time enough to make SHARP (Super-Hero Action Role Playing) based upon HARP, but that hasn't happened yet.

Be careful not to cut yourself.....lol

If you do that how hard would it be to play at different power levels? My experience with super hero games is that they don't work well with typical level based systems as players and GM's like to play at different power levels based on the type of campaign they want to run.

The game I am attempting to get going is going to have two super hero groups run by the same gaming group. One is high powered (think Prof X, Magneto, Doom, Thor, Hulk, Phoenix, etc) The other is lower powered and somewhat new to the world of super heroes (think The New Mutants, Spiderman, The X-Men when they first started, etc...). Whereas the groups are connected in some way, one is training/funding the other, sends them on missions, etc...

Bruce

[Thom @ ICE]

That's part of the challenge - but in Superheroes they normally don't progress in levels - it's more like creating a high level character for a high power campaign, and creating a low level character for a low power campaign.   Only with major plot element changes - Spider-man/Venom type stuff or Marvel Girl/Phoenix that superheroes have major power shifts.


Captain America never progressed.
Hulk only progressed when he gained the ability to think intelligently in Hulk form  - something I hated.
Thor never changed.
Wasp never changed, except for her sting getting more powerful over time.
AntMan became GiantMan, which again was a plot device.  Hawkeye?  Still a master archer. Iron Man - well, he improved his armor repeatedly, but it's not as if he increased in levels really.

[Thom @ ICE]

By the way - the real challenge with making SHARP is to give the combat rules an overhaul so that combat:
1 - Is Not so deadly (death happens in comics, but very rarely for most
2 - Is based more on knockback criticals, rather than bleeds and penalties
3 - Allows for quick and easy elimination of cannon fodder NPCs to get to the big bad guy
4 - Includes clear ways to handle damage to objects


The other difficulty, though probably not so significant as combat rules revision, would be to be clear as to when certain abilities are derived from talents, and when they are extensions of advanced skills (or a combination of both).

[jdale]

Superman became dramatically more powerful over time, almost all of his powers became more potent. And what are all those training montages for in the comics if no one actually gets better? The X-Men must be in school for something (and I think they generally do get more skilled over the course of their enrollment).

Anyway, I think in an RPG the players want development, so I would keep that regardless of whether it really models the comics or not.

[rdanhenry]

That's part of the challenge - but in Superheroes they normally don't progress in levels - it's more like creating a high level character for a high power campaign, and creating a low level character for a low power campaign.   Only with major plot element changes - Spider-man/Venom type stuff or Marvel Girl/Phoenix that superheroes have major power shifts.


Captain America never progressed.
Hulk only progressed when he gained the ability to think intelligently in Hulk form  - something I hated.
Thor never changed.
Wasp never changed, except for her sting getting more powerful over time.
AntMan became GiantMan, which again was a plot device.  Hawkeye?  Still a master archer. Iron Man - well, he improved his armor repeatedly, but it's not as if he increased in levels really.

Well, to an extent, diminishing returns will take care of this. When you're already high level, advancement isn't so noticeable. OTOH, learning to use your powers effectively is pretty important, especially when starting out. Experienced Spider-Man would mop the floor with newbie Spider-Man. The whole X-Men set up was based on the idea that powers need training to control and utilize effectively. Plus, the X-Men were expected to develop more than just their powers, but skills to support them.

Yes, new powers or boosted powers should come rarely and have an in-story justification. Price them appropriately and note the need for justification and done. Skills, however, would still matter. Low-level Ultrazapper and high-level Ultrazapper may have the same devastating energy projection beam shooting his tongue, but high-level Ultrazapper hits his target more consistently.

You also have to consider that sometimes genre-emulation is less important than the fact that you are creating a game and different media have different needs. Players like to see progress on their character sheets, even if the actual game effect is fairly minor.

[Thom @ ICE]

I will admit limited knowledge of Superman as my preference was always Marvel over DC, however from the beginning he had all of the abilities that I have ever heard attributed to him. 


For X-Men there is an increase in their control of their powers over time, but without a significant plot change the powers themselves do not change.  As for the school..... The original X-Men and later New Mutants actually learned a standard academic curriculum.  The Danger Room was used for working on controlling their powers.


For the Avengers, their training montages were almost always focused on increasing teamwork. 


As for RPG players wanting development, that may be true in Fantasy or Sci-Fi RPG's, but Superhero RPG playing is different. In comics it's about developing the hero's personality, not increasing their powers. They generally start off with the powers, but those powers themselves do not change unless it is a major plot device.


For Bruce's proposed game, I would create the characters at two different power levels, but instead of giving XP after each adventure or completing major/minor goals, I would simply leave it to the GM to raise their power level only if it fits the plot lines of the campaign. Generally in the two tier format he is describing the more powerful tier is too busy with their own mega-powered foes, leaving the less powerful ones to fight their own battles, but it's always nice to have an ally around to bail you out (either one high-powered ally saving the day, or multiple low-powered allies showing up).


SHARP would not be forcing a superhero campaign into a fantasy rpg mold... it would be delivering an rpg game that truly fits  the genre.

[Thom @ ICE]

Well, to an extent, diminishing returns will take care of this. When you're already high level, advancement isn't so noticeable. OTOH, learning to use your powers effectively is pretty important, especially when starting out. Experienced Spider-Man would mop the floor with newbie Spider-Man. The whole X-Men set up was based on the idea that powers need training to control and utilize effectively. Plus, the X-Men were expected to develop more than just their powers, but skills to support them.

Yes, new powers or boosted powers should come rarely and have an in-story justification. Price them appropriately and note the need for justification and done. Skills, however, would still matter. Low-level Ultrazapper and high-level Ultrazapper may have the same devastating energy projection beam shooting his tongue, but high-level Ultrazapper hits his target more consistently.

You also have to consider that sometimes genre-emulation is less important than the fact that you are creating a game and different media have different needs. Players like to see progress on their character sheets, even if the actual game effect is fairly minor.

If it's not about genre-emulation first and foremost, then why bother creating a separate system? 
Take the HARP rules or RM rules that already exist and simply create a 15th or 25th level character.   

As for what players want, you have your opinion and I have my own.

Diminishing returns would absolutely destroy a Superhero game.... What happens in RM and HARP due to diminishing returns?  Players begin to learn new skills because there is no point spending your DP's on the ones that are already at a high level.... In Superhero terms that would be the same as Spider-Man learning advanced combat skills from Captain America, archery from Hawkeye and mysticism from Dr. Strange because it wouldn't make sense to continue developing his acrobatics skills.

I suggest you go back and look at the genre again... this is role playing, and the game needs to fit the genre and provide an opportunity to play the character in that genre.

[rdanhenry]

The Danger Room trained more than powers. It trained a host of general fighting powers right alongside them. And Cyclops, at least, built up his Strength stat without any associated powers. Working together involves skill development; the question is how and how well does your system handle that.

If you want true genre emulation, the powers should vary arbitrarily from session to session. Power inconvenient to GM's current story line? It doesn't work. Call him on it and he's obligated to provide some justification babble ("I guess it's a side effect of exposure to extradimensional energy from when you fought Doctor Dimensions awhile back."), but that's all.

Then again, if your character dies, you can just declare that it was a clone* and have the real you appear on the scene. Somebody takes away your artificial metal claws? Just declare that unbeknownst even to yourself, they were built on bone claws that are somehow bigger than the metal ones were.

* - robot, shape-changing alien spy, or alternative Earth counterpart are also acceptable choices

Btw, original Superman couldn't fly. He just jumped. And not as high and far as the Hulk. His powers have gone up and down over the years probably more than anyone's.

Frankly, a real genre-emulation RPG for superhero comics shouldn't put either powers or skills at the center of the system, but cliches, with rules on how and when you can invoke them to alter the action. Because it really doesn't matter whether Hero A or Hero B is more powerful or how well their abilities would logically line up, the winner is going to be justified through a series of recycled surprise moves orchestrated by the writer. Aunt May vs. Galactus? Don't bet on Galatus until you find out if the writer is sweet on Aunt May.

A true comics genre emulation game wouldn't run primarily on traditional skill/power-versus-difficulty challenge rolls, but in manipulating narrative elements to arrive at desired results. Bonus points if you can work quips and catch phrases into the game mechanics.

[Thom @ ICE]

As I stated, it's a system I've only done preliminary work on.  So to answer your question as to how well the system handles skill development, it doesn't yet since the system is not complete. I expect that it should be capable by having the GM provide only a minor level (power) increase - but the key is to avoid continuous development with experience and level advancement because it's not about making your character more and more powerful - it's about playing the character you have.


As for your other comments, yes - the writer of the comics can always have Aunt May defeat Galactus.  That assumes a manipulative and controlling GM when put in a rpg game.


Powers and skills are by definition key to a superhero rpg based upon HARP.  They are necessary to define the character.  Skill and level progression is not necessarily required.


In response to the Superman comment, correct it was not developed - it went up and down as interpreted by the writer at the time.

[Bruce]

Wow ok, this is almost as bad as a discussion about politics or religion....

I agree with your view on a "typical" comic book setting where the heroes do not normally develop their powers, but there are GM's out there who at least want the option to develop powers and skills and there are GM's who need the option (God help their players).

IMHO I believe a good super hero game is defined mainly by the GM's narrative (more so than other typical RPGs). A typical RPG game like RM or HARP will not work well in a super hero setting. There are plenty of examples out there to prove that. I personally would like to see a system with rules for stat and power improvement. What if someone wanted to play a young Marvel Girl or a young Iceman as their powers are developing? What if a GM wanted a more defined set of rules on changing or developing powers further so he or she doesn't get stuck with some players complaining about favoritism? It happens, and for some GM's their abilities as a GM can only get better with a decently defined ruleset. If I think it would be good for the plot for the guy playing the armored warrior to develop new suits of armor every so often the other players might get upset if I don't do the same for them. If I do that there is a greater chance I could slip up and monty hall the game making it almost unplayable.
Btw I am also mostly a Marvel fan, but it seems DC has changed a lot in the last few years as they have been much more grittier lately. Besides "Arrow" is a really good show.

Bruce

P.S. I do believe that many of the X men had to learn how to control their powers (I know Shadow Cat aka Kitty Pride and a few others did). This could be construed as developing their powers in game terms.

[Thom @ ICE]

Let me start by saying - Arrow - yes, I DVR and watch it every week.  One of the few shows I actually watch (and not just have on in the background for noise).


As for the rest....
If the game is written with level progression as a major component (the way HARP and RM are) then gamers are forced to play in that environment and the emphasis is on progressing in powers, abilities and skills.


If the game is written with power levels as static, but having the ability to adjust them up or down when the GM says to, then the game is focused on the character themselves.


If a level 5 character is given limits to max # of DP that can be spent on a single ability, limits to their stat bonuses, and limits to their total character you end up with characters like: Falcon, Bucky, early Marvel Girl or early Iceman, and Kitty Pryde.


Level 10 characters are closer to early Colossus, Nightcrawler, Cyclops, Beast, Hawkeye, Gambit... Where they have at most one stat or ability at high levels.


Now a GM never has to consider taking his level 5 campaign and having characters (and foes) progress to 6,7, and 8 levels.  The GM focuses on the plot.  If later he wants Mister Metal to increase the speed of his armored flight to supersonic speeds and add more firepower he considers that such a plot development would make Mister Metal a Level 15 character. Now he knows that to avoid unbalancing the game he would need to either bring the other characters to level 15 or ensure that Mister Metal has a balanced foe to have to fight with and then introduces Magno.  Magno counters Mister Metal, but unfortunately he has no ability to resist the mental assault from Psi-lass who, despite being level 5, is able to save her powerful friend. That I see as being more oriented towards comics.


The concept of different power levels remains, but the game is not about level progression so XP don't play a part. If someone wants to include them that's fine, I can put together optional rules for that, but I would discourage it as it shifts the game focus.

[RandalThor]

Anyone here know enough about d20 to offer advice? Can I simply multiply everything by 5 to get percentage results/DC/modifiers? Or are there more detailed conversions needed.

For the most part, yes, you can just multiply by 5. But, that is coming from a convert D20 to Rolemaster/D100 numbers, I do not know the Marvel Heroes RPG, so I don't know exactly how they arrive at their totals.

[Bruce]

For the most part, yes, you can just multiply by 5. But, that is coming from a convert D20 to Rolemaster /D100 numbers, I do not know the Marvel Heroes RPG, so I don't know exactly how they arrive at their totals.

The original Marvel Super Heroes was a percentile based game. Someone developed a d20 conversion for it and added a bunch of d20 skill checks and what not. I want it all converted back to the percentile version. So in your eyes how hard would it be to convert a typical d20 ruleset to a percentile ruleset?

For that matter I wonder how hard it would be to convert Mutants and Masterminds to a percentile ruleset?

Bruce

[RandalThor]

Well, percentile is basically 20x5, so converting the basic numbers should be easy. But, the individual rules on how to do things might be tricky. I have only played the original M&M - many years back - so I don't remember much about it, only that it played like a classless & levelless D20. I also don't know how Marvel Super Heroes rules work, like how do they handle damage, critical hits (if any), special effects, etc... so I cannot comment on that, though if you explain to me how MSH does things (I will also check out my PDF copy - I think I have the same one you are referring to), I can come up with some ideas. More importantly, others reading the thread will also be able to do so.

I just took a quick look at what I got, and I don't think I do have the one you are referring to; I got the old TSR one, and the newer one which uses all the different types of dice, sort of like Savage Worlds, but not quite. Apparently with this one you could end up rolling several of one, and one of several others, or any combination; it doesn't look like a D20 scale game to me.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

A  LOT of Super-hero-games out there.

Which is the best is dependant upon what you want to achieve with them. Mutants & Masterminds is ok....I prefer the O.R.E systems (Wild Talents and God-like) mainly for the dice mechanism and their ability to be wound into the narrative style of actions. They are also better for those groups that DON'T want to play in the same universe as the Marvel/D.C superheroes.

[Bruce]

A  LOT of Super-hero-games out there.

Which is the best is dependant upon what you want to achieve with them. Mutants & Masterminds is ok....I prefer the O.R.E systems (Wild Talents and God-like) mainly for the dice mechanism and their ability to be wound into the narrative style of actions. They are also better for those groups that DON'T want to play in the same universe as the Marvel/D.C superheroes.

Well When I play Marvel Super Heroes I don't use the Marvel universe. I use my own with some Marvel and some DC heroes plus maybe a few from indie comics. It is really easy to make characters from Marvel on the fly. In the universe I run, the characters are usually part of the core heroes of the world. At least one set of them are. Marvel in itself is a really easy game to run and to play. I'd say it was the best super hero RPG out there but I don't know all the others that well nowadays. A good friend of mine who did actually have a hand in writing one of the modern super hero games stated "nothing will ever beat Marvel Super Heroes". And we usually have the same opinion on RPG's.
Bruce