Topic: What is the DB bonus of an Adamantine Buckler Shield?

[LukeZ]

What is the DB bonus of an Adamantine Buckler Shield?

[dagorhir]

What is the DB bonus of an Adamantine Buckler Shield?

I will go with:

DB MB = 10
IV = 5

+0 + (5 x 10) = +50 untrained
+15 + (5 x 10) = +65 trained

DB +50/+65 cost: 760gp (76 000cp)

[Thom @ ICE]

Since the Buckler is not listed with an incremental value in Martial Law, I'll give you my opinion (not a definitive).
Since it grants a +15DB, I would go with an IV of 1.5 (equal to 15DB from a Plate Cuirass), therefore the DB Bonus is 10x1.5 = 15
Total DB value of an adamantine Buckler +30 (assuming trained) or +15 (untrained)

[LukeZ]

Since the Buckler is not listed with an incremental value in Martial Law, I'll give you my opinion (not a definitive).
Since it grants a +15DB, I would go with an IV of 1.5 (equal to 15DB from a Plate Cuirass), therefore the DB Bonus is 10x1.5 = 15
Total DB value of an adamantine Buckler +30 (assuming trained) or +15 (untrained)

I like it very much!

[dagorhir]

Thom,

A note on pg 173 of the core book states that all items except for individual pieces of armor have an increment value of +5. Are shields considered individual pieces of armor? If so, what are their IVs? (other than by comparing the DB from armor pieces)

[Thom @ ICE]

Consider this....
Adamantine Buckler
Adamantine Wall Shield

Buckler weighs 1-4# and gives a +15
Wall Shield weighs 25-30# and gives a +40

Adamantine versions if you use the IV=5 policy makes the buckler +65 and the wall shield +90.   The wall shield increase ratio is 225% and the Buckler is 433%.

Note: I chose plate/chain for 2 reasons (convenience of the +15DB and the fact that plate/chain is similar to the application of making a shield as a single solid sheet of metal with support).  I liked the results because the +15 was convenient, but now looking at the details, I like the other reason more - and it gives me an easy rule for shields.

Shield IV should be 1/10 x the DB bonus they provide (similar to Chain/plate armor pieces).

Wall Shield is 4x
Full Shield is 3x
Normal Shield is 2.5x
Target shield is 2x
Buckler is 1.5x

It works, it makes sense and it's easy to use....
Adamantine Wall Shield therefore delivers +80DB
Adamantine Target Shield is +40DB

[Ecthelion]

Thom, I think that your ruling has its merits and pronounces the differences between a buckler and a wall shield better than the rulings dagorhir used. But I think, if we use the official rules, he is correct, since the increments value is IMO +5 for all shields. Perhaps this could be changed for the next revision?

[dagorhir]

I also think Thom's rule makes sense, although I would use the size in inches as a comparison than the weight. A shield that is 10" in size is a buckler for a human, but a target shield for a halfling. Will the increment be different depending on who uses it? Probably not.

I will consider all this to make up a house rule for my game that will make sense.

Thanks

[Thom @ ICE]

Note that all items are assumed to be appropriately sized for the race using them.  If an ogre is using a halfling's buckler it would be no more than a hand guard.  If a halfling used an ogre's wall shield it would be a wall...

I look at shields as a subgroup of armor, and consider the lack of IV on their table in HARP Fantasy to simply be an oversight.  (Of course that could just be my convenient excuse to make it work) If you wish to go with the ruling that all complete items are IV=5, go for it, I'm not going to argue.

As for a next revision for HARP - that would be a long way off, and likely to include a lot of significant changes, not just minor changes.  It would be up to Nicholas if this needs to be included on future printings of the current rules.

[dagorhir]

I also place shields in armor 

I already have a house rule for shields where a specific type of shield is a percent of the character's race. For instance, a shield is considered a buckler if it is around 15% of the size of the person using it. So a 10" shield would be a buckler if used by an average human, but it will be target (25%) shield if it is used by halfling or a gnome. It would offer no extra protection to an Ogre as it is simply too small. A always describe shields by their size and not the type.

After sleeping over it, I don't thing superior material would grant much better protection since protection comes from the size shield and the skill of the user. It would make the shield much more resilient to breakage. So I think I will go with an IV of 1 for all shields when it comes to material bonus and an IV of 5 for magical bonus.

So an Adamantine shield of any type/size would gain a +10DB from the material.