Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMSS/FRP => Topic started by: Arioch on November 08, 2007, 04:26:15 AM
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Sorry if this has been discussed before (I'm almost sure, but I couldn't find the right topic).
As characters grows up to higer levels they need more and more XPs to advance but their DPs pool remain more or less the same. In addition, skills at higher levels also advance more slowly, so a player may have to gain 50000xps to gain a new level just to have a +1 to his total skill bonuses...
Do you think it's a good idea to give a little more DPs to PCs after a certain level (something like +5 DPs after level 10, +10 after level 15 and +15 after level 20)?
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Not, I think is the natural way to learn, at first you learn rapidly, but then slower, and at some point it is very hard to improve your skills.
You can use 2 options:
1) Use potential rolls to determine DPs: this makes easier the character creation because you have the same DPs for all levels, it requires much less keepbooking, I really prefer the simplicity and less working.
2) Allow to buy talents: we use the rules that you can buy a talent that cost the same o less points than your own level, limited to 1 talent per level as maximum. This allows to higher level characters buy better talents. Is GM work to decide talents allowed to buy.
This can aid to high level characters to begin an 'epic character' (increase their PPs, OBs, spell duration, etc.).
Too, remember to revise some talents, for example I revised the HPs, they gives you originally 1-2-4-6 HP per rank (the minor, lesser...), I modified them to 1-2-3-4 per rank looking at their cost.
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Not, I think is the natural way to learn, at first you learn rapidly, but then slower, and at some point it is very hard to improve your skills.
Yes, I find it "realistic" too, but I just want to make levelling more rewarding for higher level PCs someway...
1) Use potential rolls to determine DPs: this makes easier the character creation because you have the same DPs for all levels, it requires much less keepbooking, I really prefer the simplicity and less working.
I give a fixed amount of DPs each level, for the same reasons :)
2) Allow to buy talents: we use the rules that you can buy a talent that cost the same o less points than your own level, limited to 1 talent per level as maximum. This allows to higher level characters buy better talents. Is GM work to decide talents allowed to buy.
This can aid to high level characters to begin an 'epic character' (increase their PPs, OBs, spell duration, etc.).
Too, remember to revise some talents, for example I revised the HPs, they gives you originally 1-2-4-6 HP per rank (the minor, lesser...), I modified them to 1-2-3-4 per rank looking at their cost.
This could be an idea, but I don't like very much the concept... I will think about it
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In my experience, what tends to happen is that higher level characters start expanding the range of skills they have.
You are right in that a 23rd lvl fighter going to 24 would spend xx DPs to only gain +1 (books not to hand!), so as well as or instead, many choose another weapon to get +10 in, or riding, or herb lore, or ...........
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i don't like the idee of giving more DP, i would rather make the character find very useful MORE skills since the begining of the game. If you (maybe using Martial Arts Companion) make the use of different weapon very useful since the begining you put the PC in the situation of developing more than one melee weapon and at least one missile. These avoid the issue of having them reach the "+1 per rank" situation too early!! in real world every fighter was able to fight with many kind of weapons, but in rolemaster PC tend to focus only on one!!
For the spell user the problem its even less present, the spells are too many that they always have something to learn, even if they are 30? lv :D
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For the spell user the problem its even less present, the spells are too many that they always have something to learn, even if they are 30? lv :D
That's absolutely true! And for semis it's even better! ;D
In the end I didn't do any change and just accepted the diminishing return.
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The greatest problem is that the players feel that advancing a level is rather useless, since the character dont really get better.
This is mostly arms-users, since spell users always have spells to spend point on.
However there are ways to make arms-users happy too:
Mutiple Attack Proficiency (From companion 5) is one way to do this, though you might want to disallow it for two weapon combat. Also please take a look at the fighters in the party and calcutale their OB and number of attacks before you allow it. A fighter with two-weapon combat using MAP and having the Trained Regulat footman BG (one extra MA S&W rank 1 attack/round) can easily make 5 attacks per round. Haste him and you get 10 attacks per round.
Another way of making players feel that they are getting better is by Roleplay.I usually say that the OB is the ability to hit the opponent, while the number of ranks in a weapon tells how good the persons technique with the weapon is.
Since many fighters stop getting more ranks when they reach 30 ranks, a fighter with 40 ranks in sword ought to be Famous for his masterfull swordhandling. There will be people traveling from far away to learn a trick or two from the master. (The Martial Arts companion have many good ideas for this in regards to martial arts and there are no reason not to make these work for other weapon skills as well)
In general, if you make those ranks count for something, be that MAP, fame or something else, players WILL fell that they get something for the DP that they put into the skills.
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Whilst I agree that the XP to DP expenditure seems excessive at high levels it is well balanced and realistic.
The higher levels is where the non-spell user expend their DP's to learn complementry skills (Combat Manuevers and Special Attacks)... however a direct increase in DP will still favour the spell using classes.
I personally like the idea of training to improve stats past their potientals.. especially for higher level characters, this has the effect of increasing stats, and more importantly the stat bonuses. This I allow as part of the normal stat gain roll, however, the rationale could be made for DP spent dedicating yourself to further improvement...
This option is already in the rules anyway. 8DP for a additional Stat gain roll. However, at high levels most characters will have maxed out. (usually by 5-7th level)
I allow a system which allows the increase of stats past their potiental (effectively increaseing the potiental).
This relates the Current/Potiental stat to the results of the stat gain dice but only when the results are doubles. (Normally you add the total with results of 5,5.. 6,6....7,7 and add them to the current...up to the maximum potiental).
I allow this potiental to be increased slightly if the number rolled (a double ie. 66,77,88,99,100) is equal or higher than 10 less than the potiental. The actual amount the Potiental is increased by is based on the following formula:
(Stat Gain dice result/2)+2 -(potiental/10 round down) = increase in potiental.
Any result of 00, will result in at least a 1 point increase regardless of the Potiental.
i.e. a potiental of 75, can be increased with rolls of 6+6 (1pt), 7+7(2pts), 8+8(3pts), 9+9(4pts) and 10+10(5pts)
e.g. a character with a current of 75 and a potiental of 90, rolls an 8+8. This automatically increases the current to 75+10 = 85. It also increases the potiental to 91.
This could be expanded by decreasing the cost for additional rolls made when the Current = Potiental.
It is obviously a risky proposition and unlikely to gain automatic success. I'd say a character could only make one such attempt per stat per level increase. (You could also bias the DP cost for certain stats and also decreasing the costs for Arms users and increasing them for Pure Spell Users).
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Another thing to note.. at higher levels characters are fighting higher level bad guys, solving more important puzzles and generally gain more experience per session.
Thus the expanding XP gap between levels isn't as big a deal.
-Josh
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Actually, as your character increases in level, he gain less xp IMHO: more and more actions become routine (half xp); lower level spells give no xp; high level enemies and spells gives less xp than before (because the xp they give are based also on your character level), etc...
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Well the assumption is that the GM will be tossing higher and higher level guys at you to keep things challenging.
Yes... some things will become routine, but new things will become available (though I'll admit, less and less new things become available the higher levels you go up.)
Spells and resistance rolls, go up at a constant rate, but hits and OB's don't. Because of diminishing returns on skill ranks, it's much easier for a level 21 fighter to defeat level 31 fighter then it is for a level 1 fighter defeat a level 11 fighter.
In any case, in my games we award a pretty large percentage of XP for role-play, goal achievement, and other 'bonus' things (I highly recommend checking out this thread http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=4695.0 (http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=4695.0))... so keeping up with level advancement isn't too much of a problem.
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Rather than giving lots of bonus XP, I prefer not to use them and too grant levels whenever it fells right according to the story progression. Not a scientific way to do, but one which emphasize roleplaying and diversity in character development. Thus a character will improve if he contribute to the story without the need for being "Xp-customized" (don't know if I'm clear ;))
The goal system used in Harp is also neat as it grant XP when fulfilling significant goals.
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Spells and resistance rolls, go up at a constant rate, but hits and OB's don't. Because of diminishing returns on skill ranks, it's much easier for a level 21 fighter to defeat level 31 fighter then it is for a level 1 fighter defeat a level 11 fighter.
Which is why your 25th level spell user is much more excited about learning a new spell than the fighter/thief/rogue picking up ranks in cooking, needlepoint and elvish folk tunes.
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Not that I've played up to 25th level before, but don't spellcasters also have a problem of diminishing returns at higher levels?
The 21st to 24th, 26th to 29th, and 31st to 49th skill ranks in a spell list yield no new spells learned.
The DPs spent at those levels give a +1 to skill in the list, but no new effects learned.
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Kind of. Yes they do have 'blank ranks' however they know that after four ranks - bam! - cool spell. The fighter knows that his 31st through 100th rank in a weapon gives him the exact same thing - +.5 OB. So a pure spends 15 dp's for a spell - perhaps in 3 levels. A fighter gets +7.5 OB over 15 levels or +3 with 15 dp's over 3 levels.
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May be if your fighters get frustrated, you could use the combat options from Harp, giving new combat options when reaching 20, 40 and 60 ranks in any given weapon.
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That's a good idea, giving a reason to develop a weapon beyond the 20th rank
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That's a good idea, giving a reason to develop a weapon beyond the 20th rank
Wait until you see the combat style rules.... ;D
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That's a good idea, giving a reason to develop a weapon beyond the 20th rank
Wait until you see the combat style rules.... ;D
You certainly know how to create hype! ;D
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And maybe we can rest easier with just a little glimpse of what you are speaking about Rasyr ;D
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On more DP's...I give 100DP a level, for everybody, regardless of stats.
The end result is players have been far more willing to take a very low stat and play penalty mods because they do not suffer a hit to DP.
I have also learned that 100DP is not unbalancing, though admittedly, my original 85DP a level was just fine too. It was after looking at what 15 more dev a level meant (basically more secondary skill advancement) that I went to 100 DP.
lynn
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OK, first of all: I can't believe you quote Calvin & Hobbes in your sig. I love that comic strip! Go Spaceman Spiff!!
I like to give a set amount of DPs per level and this last time it was 100 a level too. They don't need more DPs at higher levels, I feel that a method for being able to increase skills a little faster would be better.
What I mean is, say you are a 30th level magician and you want to pick some cool Self Control skill, like Stunned Removal (it really sucks to have your spell disrupted, I mean really, so what if you were stabbed in the kidney - its my spell and I want to cast it!! Mooooooommmmmmmm!!!!). Now you have a Self Control progression of 6. That means that only one rank per level could you gain. Let's change that by enforcing stricter training times (we all fudge on those, come on, you know you do......).
Say you cap it at a certain percentage of each level's DPs, we'll go with 30 pts to keep the math nice and easy. That means that when he gets to 31st level, he can pick up 5 ranks of Stunned Removal, but the training time could be months, maybe even up to a year. That does two things. Allows the character to gain a skill that they can actually see some use from immediately and gets rid of the too powerful 25 year old.
The 30th level magician should be getting on their in years, not still popping zits. (Unless, of course, he fumbled a spell and got whole body acne as a result! Sucks to be you.)
The maximum ranks I would allow them to get to with this method, would be equal to their level. This reflects that it is no longer a new skill, but one they are more familiar with so progression would slow down. For many skills the initial learning is the fastest, but then getting better after that initial push is much slower.
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For fighters and such we use an old optional rule.....
+1 to the crit / each rank subtracted from the attack.
Keeps the PC's buying ranks long after the OB quits increasing. ;D
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For fighters and such we use an old optional rule.....
+1 to the crit / each rank subtracted from the attack.
Keeps the PC's buying ranks long after the OB quits increasing. ;D
I am not sure of what you are proposing with this rule. Are the fighters able to subract from thier OB a number equal to the number of ranks they have in the weapon and add those to any critical roles that might come from the attack? If so. Wow, that is a little empowering.
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How about the ability to by as many ranks in new skill as the average of your Me/Sd mod?
lynn
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And what costs do you propose ? If a skill costs 2/5 and I want to buy 5 ranks, how much do I pay ?
Perhaps it would be easier if all skills have a single cost, like in Harp.
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If you want to speed up skill progression a bit, treat all skills as if they had a /20 behind it.
So a cost of 3 is really 3/20 and a cost of 2/7 is 2/7/20.
Going beyond that is IMO not wise since there have to be some kind of learning time, no matter how many points you allocate into a skill.
It's not like they woke up one morning after having spend all their Dp and then suddenly are master Smiths or woodcrafters. ("I have seen the light!")
For fighters, I use Multiple Attack Profiency which usually make them use DP on their weapons. Semi-spell users always need DP to get both Magic and non magic skills and Pure spell users can always use DP's on spells. Especially if you use Prosaic Magic from Spell users comapanion or if you use power point development.
Since your campaign is already running, you can have the players use Power Point development once they have exceeded the racial max for Power Points.
I do not hand out 100 Dp's per level. More like 60, since I give 50% more DP than the rules say.
BUT skills developed with a teacher (Which have to be at least 5 levels higher than the PC) can be bought at half the normal amount of DP.
This have the benefit of characters actually searching for good teachers and doing things for them because they want to be taught. :)
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Average the cost, or pay both. 2, then 5, 2, then 5...
lynn
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On more DP's...I give 100DP a level, for everybody, regardless of stats.
I give 100DP per level, too and completely agree with you on that.
From this thread it seems that there are a lot of people who think that high-level fighters should have some kind of power-up and that dislike the rank/level limit someway...
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I don't feel fighters need any boost in power. I have played a fighter for several years bringing him up to the 31st level and I never felt frustrated when compared with my fellow mage. One think I like particularly was the possibility for the fighter to develop into many areas of skills (leadership, outdoor... and even some magics).
However, in a campaign I Gmed long ago, I used a skill named Improved criticals. It was used to make criticals delivered by high level fighters more deadly than low level ones. I can't remember the cost assigned to that skill, but essentially you could bought 1 rank by level and your ranks were added to the crits you delivered (0-1-1-0.5-0). That could do for a power-up.
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I don't feel fighters need any boost in power. I have played a fighter for several years bringing him up to the 31st level and I never felt frustrated when compared with my fellow mage. One think I like particularly was the possibility for the fighter to develop into many areas of skills (leadership, outdoor... and even some magics).
But then he really isn't a fighter anymore then is he? It isn't so much the lack of ability to diversify skills playing a non it is that I know ahead of time that my main skills will cap around 15th level while spell casting classes still progress in their areas of expertiese.
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I give 100DP per level, too and completely agree with you on that.
I'm not a fan of the flat DP per level system. DP giving attributes tend to be less useful (as far as skill bonuses) especially in combat. I'm under the impression that the designers intended non development stats to be less useful in day to day life, as a trade off for getting more skill points.
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The problem with basing DP's on stats is it penalizes the desire to roleplay.
If you wish to play a forgetful mage with a 27 Me, you get a stat penalty and less DP. This does not represent real life either since a person with poor memory would learn to take advantage of other abilities to compensate, thus not losing out in overall available DP. Since all Me based skills will already suffer from a low stat mod, there is no reason to punish the player twice.
Sd, Ag and Co are three stats my players will often want to take lower than average for many reasons. Set DP lets them without being limited beyond the low stat mod.
lynn
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DP giving attributes tend to be less useful (as far as skill bonuses) especially in combat.
I don't agree on that: there are a lot of skills (expecially combat oriented ones) influenced by Agility, which is a DP stat; Constitution is important for both Body Development and some RRs; Self Discipline is used for many skill catgories, and so are Memory and Reasoning.
IMHO flat DP have many pros: all characters receive the same amount of DPs each level, PCs can be builded around the concept you want without being penalized too much for your choices, you have more DPs to buy "secondary" skills which fit your character...
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I don't agree on that: there are a lot of skills (expecially combat oriented ones) influenced by Agility, which is a DP stat; Constitution is important for both Body Development and some RRs; Self Discipline is used for many skill catgories, and so are Memory and Reasoning.
That is true with Agility especially. I was working on a House Rule that based stat gain on which skills you took ranks in (and the corresponding stats). I never got it to work properly because Agility it turns out is an uber stat that is by far the most oft-used stat...used more then 70 times* in the RMSS skills whereas some stats, like Quickness and Constitution are used less then 5. Most of the other stats are somewhere around 20 or 30.
*I counted a stat each time it was used in a skill, and used the optional 3rd stat. So a skill that is Re/Me/Me would count Me twice.
If it weren't for Agility then the other stats are much more close to being equal, in terms of their distribution across skills other then Co and Qu but you could argue they are just as important because of their use in Hits and DB.
Agility being a Development Stat makes it even worse, especially for min-maxing it's a no-brainer.
I give 100 DP a level too, with RMSS but since I've been paring down my skill set considerably so will expect to fall more in the range of 50-60.
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If you wish to play a forgetful mage with a 27 Me, you get a stat penalty and less DP.
You may want to create a forgetful mage by giving him a malus to his memory stat rather than lessening his stat score. This way you get a low bonus but still get your DPs.
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You may want to create a forgetful mage by giving him a malus to his memory stat rather than lessening his stat score. This way you get a low bonus but still get your DPs.
What if we do not use talents and flaws, nor wish too?
lynn
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How about the ability to by as many ranks in new skill as the average of your Me/Sd mod?
lynn
For mine, I would go with the progression it has in the order it has it.
A skill with a 2/5 would come out like this if they get to buy 7 ranks:
2/5/2/5/2/5/2. For a total of 32 pts. You don't have to change the numbers at all.
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Ooops. Sorry, quoted the wrong person. This is what I meant to quote:
And what costs do you propose ? If a skill costs 2/5 and I want to buy 5 ranks, how much do I pay ?
Perhaps it would be easier if all skills have a single cost, like in Harp.
Then follow with the above statement.
As for what I did quote: You could just as easily add your Re, Me, & SD stat bonuses together to get a percentage of your DPs or just the actual number of DPs they can spend on the increase. The costs would limit the number of skill ranks, so that something that that particular profession is good at (i.e. low cost) they would be able to purchase more ranks in, in effect learning it faster.
Imagine you are a 20th level fighter who has just found the +30 Longsword of Ultimate Demon-bane. Dang it! You only have ranks in broadsword and dagger for one-handed edged. Now you can get more than 2 ranks a level so that the sword will be useful, faster. It can be role-played as s/he is intensely training with the weapon; sweaty and all focusy and stuff.
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I dont think a 4th lvl fighter gets a kill crit as easy as a 30th lvl fighter, thus the trade of +1 to crit/ skill rank not used. Seams to work good.
For what the next cost would be we just figgure the next increment....
1/2 becomes 1/2/4/8/10/20/ect.. double previous
3/6 becomes 3/6/12/24/ect..
3/9 becomes 3/9/27/ect... triple previous
2/5 becomes 2/5/12/30/ect... double plus 1/2 previous
Works good and shows the difficulity of getting many ranks in a single LVL on something that isint x/*