Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMC/RM2 => Topic started by: zorfwaddle on June 14, 2007, 04:12:02 PM
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Howdy All,
Im trying to come up with other names for the Monk and Warrior Monk profession. To me, the current name means a non-warrior, non-spellcaster, mundane profession. Id like to come up with another name. Ive already renamed the High Warrior Monk to Martial Artist, but am having trouble coming up with something that would symbolize the other two.
George
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Maybe you could go with Esoteric Martial Artist for the Monk as he uses magic. Or Mystical Martial Artist.
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Shadowrun uses the names physical adepts, and you could add other things to distinguish weather they use magic or not.
MDC
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Warrior Monk == Martial Artist
Monk == Adept
Just a suggestion....
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PS - "high Warrior Monk" is NOT core, and badly unbalanced.
I would not normally use the class.
Even if you do, it's the WARRIOR MONK that should be renamed the Martial Artist - come up with a different name for the HWM
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To re-ignite the old essence vs mentalism debate:
essence monk: Taoist Monk
mentalism monk: Zen Monk
warrior monk: Sohei or Martial Artist
Seriously, I wouldn't use High Warrior Monk. It's basically a warrior monk anyway, so why split hairs?
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HWM = "Legendary" Martial artist or "Cinematic" martial artist,
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All,
Thank you very much for the suggestions.
Honestly, in my 25 years of playing Rolemaster (off and on), I have never had anyone play a WM or a HWM. I definetly would place the HWM in w/ the Chaos Lord as an "NPC" class or something like that. I love the options and modability that Rolemaster provides and look forward to GMing the game again.
George
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So, in the end, what did you go with?
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At Shaolin they simply call them 'fighting monks' to differentiate them from the more monkey monks so warrior monk is pretty applicable.
You could also go with boddhisatva.
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All,
Thanks for your suggestions.
In the end -
HWM - Martial Artist
WM - WM (Fighting Monk) :-)
Monk - Adept
The HWM will only be available as an NPC, perhaps.
So, that done, if I should use the Adept from the RM2 Alchemy Companion, it would be renamed "Scholastic Alchemist" or something like that.
Other changes in the MA realm: Can only study the next Rank of Martial Arts if you have 10 ranks in the preceding Ranks, ie 30 Rank 1, 20 Rank 2, 10 Rank 3, 1 Rank 1. Additionally, each Rank is more difficult to obtain, ie Monk Rank 1 2/5, Rank 2 3/6, Rank 3 4/7, Rank 4 5/8 or 6 (or something). Havent decided on the cost for each.
Comments are welcome.
George
*edited to add something*
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*blinks in surprise*
Man, you must really hate Martial Arts :)
Consider this: How would the fighters in your group react if they were told that they had to wait 15 or 20 levels before they could give maximum damage with their swords?
I would really like to hear the reason behind that change in the rules.
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RM martial arts are very neat and balanced with the other combat attacks...which is the problem. RM martial arts attacks are over powered, by which I mean, it is much harder to kill with your bare hands than the martial arts rules/crit table represents.
Against armed foes, the name of unarmed combatants, be they martial artist or what ever, is mince meat. If the oppisite were true, unarmed combat, and not armed combat, would be the way of the warrior.
lynn
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RM martial arts are very neat and balanced with the other combat attacks...which is the problem. RM martial arts attacks are over powered, by which I mean, it is much harder to kill with your bare hands than the martial arts rules/crit table represents.
Against armed foes, the name of unarmed combatants, be they martial artist or what ever, is mince meat. If the oppisite were true, unarmed combat, and not armed combat, would be the way of the warrior.
lynn
If you fell that Martial Arts is too powerful against armored opponents, just say that chain reduce the critical by one level (E crits become D crits) and Plate Armor reduce it by two levels.
The problem by doing it the way Zorfwaddle sugests is that it makes Martial Arts pretty much useless and thus you might as well get rid of the WarriorMonk and High Warrior Monk.
It might be over powered compared to real life, but then again so is the Warrior Mage and I dont hear people complain about that.
A 10th level Warrior Monk will have an OB of (20 ranks=70, +10 from stats, +20 from level Bonus) +100.
The DB will be +10 from stats, +70 from Skill ranks and + 10 from levelbonus= 90 DB
AT will be 1 or 2.
The cost of this will be (for Rank 4 attacks) 16 for striking, 16 for Sweeps and 10 for Adrenal Defense=42 PER LEVEL.
And the Warrior Monk still needs to pay for Body Development, which is 2/7, so add 9 DP per level for the first 6-7 levels, for a total of 51 DP per level
That is more development points than characters get according to the core rules.
A 10th level Mentalist Warrior Mage will have the same OB=100 only if he or she haven't managed to pick up a magical or High Quality weapon, which is somewhat unlikely at level 10, so let's say the Warrior Mage have a +10 weapon. Thats 110 OB.
Assuming that he wears AT 18, his DB will be 0 from stats, 30 from shield and most likely +10 from his enchanted/high quality armor=40.
Now for the fun part: Spells.
A Warrior Mage usually does not go into combat without having cast Combat enhancement, which at level 10 is +15 OB and DB.
That gives a total OB of 125 and a total DB of 55.
And the Warrior Mage can still cast Bladeturn (+100 DB for 1 attack), Blur (+10 DB), Stun Relief and various other spells to help before, during and after combat.
I haven't even taken into consideration that a 10th level Warrior Mage can cast Shockbolt on the Warrior Monk before they even enter into melee and the Warrior Monk, having no shield, would only have a 10 DB against this attack.
For all this, the Warrior Mage have payed 9 DB for his weapon, 8 DP for Maneuvering in Plate and 16 DB for spells (just an level average) for a grand total of 33 DP fer level.
Add 11 points for Body Development for the first levels and you get a total of 44.
That is slightly more than most characters get according to the core rules, but it is within reach and the warrior Mage can elect to use chain armor instead, which is cheaper to get.
Yes, Martial Arts is good in combat, but the cost alone do that it's less than perfect for characters and we haven't even considered that MA sucks against Large and Super Large Creatures.
So my opinion is that Martial Arts might not be balanced with real life, but it's balanced within the game system. Of cause if you play in worlds where there is no magic, it's overpowered, but if you play in a world where there is magic and large/Super large creatures it works out fine. :)
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There are plenty of complains about the Warrior Mage if you browse through the forum. Many of them follow the matra of that profession being too powerfull.
in your analysis you said a few things I disagree with. If trhe Warrior Mage casts Shock Bolt at the Monk then AD applies if the monk is aware of the attack. The Abilities and armor of the Warrior Mage you didnt mention the Skill or ability Transcence which will be needed by the WM to cast his spells in no matter what armor he is wearing and Bladerunes is Arcane, which should be rare unless you made it into a WM base list, which just adds to his power.
The casting monk can cast a number of spells which adds to his power, so that battle would be somewhat equal.
I have nothing against the monks nor the WMage. Either is fairly rare in the campaigns I have played. One thing that usually anoys me abot the monks are their high DB. Of course you can go around that with abuses, resistant roll spells and ball spells (if you say like I do that DB doesnt apply against them).
Nor do I see a reason to limit the monks in anyway. Their abilities are part of their charm, though neither can be part in every campaign because of the settings.
Well enough fromanother dane
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According to Comp 2, Adrenal Defense is defined like this: By using Adrenal Defense attacks with melee or missile weapon may be Dodged or Deflected.[.....] Against missile weapons the skill rank is halved before calculated and added to he defensive bonus.
Thus it cannot be used against Elemental bolt attack spells. (I usually explain that they simply move too fast to be avioded.
Trancendence is not needed when the Warrior Mage is a Mentalist User. He just cannot wear a helmet.
Bladeturn is not a Bladerune. It's from either Combat Enhancement (WMage Base) or from Attack Avoidence (Open Mentalism) :)
Yes, the Monk can cast a number of spells that benefits him, but the again he is a Semi-spell user and pays even more for Martial Arts skill and Adrenal Defense. My point was that Warrior Monks and High Warrior Monks are not unbalanced, when compared to Semi-spell users. :)
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Misread the Bladerunes things, and I wouldnt allow the Warrior Mage to have elemental ways if they are mentalism users. As for Adrenal Defense and Bolts I have always assumed the Adrenal Defense would apply. According to your assumption about it, then standard DB shouldnt apply either, since they are so fast. I dont have my books near so I cant look anything up atm
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The only point I got from the post was that the warrior mage is the worst of the broken professions, and should be removed from play. Even worse that a mentalist version would even be allowed.
The other point I got was also a good laugh. Why should any prof be expected to be able to develop to maximum all of its OB skills? Max strikes and max sweeps and max AD? The problem isnt the amount of dev, the problem is an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. By design, all martial arts users will have to pick one form to be their main form, and the other as a less developed secondary form. Yep, the martial artist is suppossed to have an innate limitation. I can hear the players beginning to cry already. This is were I point out there are 19 other professions plus companions (I play RMFRP, and I still do not allow even the more balanced version of the warrior mage from Ess Comp).
Now for the confessions; being a (mostly) reformed power gamer, I have used and seen used HWM a great deal, WM a lot less, because even in my power gaming days, I and my players found them a travesty. However, power gaming IS fun, and RM martial arts are designed on a heroic/fantastic level of play by default. I know I loved them for a long time.
One rule I have kept from the very 1st edition of RM; unarmed fighters cannot parry armed foes. You need a weapon or shield or AD, otherwise its duck, dodge and RUN.
lynn
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The only point I got from the post was that the warrior mage is the worst of the broken professions, and should be removed from play. Even worse that a mentalist version would even be allowed.
The profesion doesn't really matter that much. A Bard could do pretty much the same, except the +15 from Combat Enhancement spell, could use Shock Bolt from the Open Mentalist Brilliance, which have a better range and Bladeturn/Shield from Attack Avoidence.
The Warrior Mage is in my opinion not more broken than a lot of other professions. It all depend on the style of play.
The other point I got was also a good laugh. Why should any prof be expected to be able to develop to maximum all of its OB skills? Max strikes and max sweeps and max AD? The problem isnt the amount of dev, the problem is an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. By design, all martial arts users will have to pick one form to be their main form, and the other as a less developed secondary form.
I have to agree on the limitations of Martial Arts, BUT even if you take away the rapid skill advancement from one of the MA forms, you still end up paying 16 for the main form, which is more than most Semi-Spell users pay for their main weapon.
It's not the question about maxing every offensive skill that you have, it's about that most warrior type DO place the max number of skillranks per level in their main weapon.
(And if not, then the books need new NPC tables :) )
Yep, the martial artist is suppossed to have an innate limitation. I can hear the players beginning to cry already. This is were I point out there are 19 other professions plus companions (I play RMFRP, and I still do not allow even the more balanced version of the warrior mage from Ess Comp).
Now for the confessions; being a (mostly) reformed power gamer, I have used and seen used HWM a great deal, WM a lot less, because even in my power gaming days, I and my players found them a travesty. However, power gaming IS fun, and RM martial arts are designed on a heroic/fantastic level of play by default. I know I loved them for a long time.
One rule I have kept from the very 1st edition of RM; unarmed fighters cannot parry armed foes. You need a weapon or shield or AD, otherwise its duck, dodge and RUN.
lynn
Well according to the rules, Parry in Rolemaster IS the same as Dodge and you CAN 'Parry' without a weapon, because you dodge.
I used the houserule of halving the OB transfered to DB when not having a weapon to actually parry with, but it's still a house rule. :)
For me it's not about that professions have to be balanced with eachother, but rather to the campaign and the style of the GM.
Basically that (as always) means: To each their own :)
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.......
Monk= Grasshopper
Warrior Monk= Little grasshopper
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My reason for making it so difficult to attain higher MA ranks is this: Higher ranks of a MA are obviously considered to be the most dangerous techniques of the particular art, perhaps requiring years of mastery in order to become effective. Currently, in order to learn these higher "mysteries," George the WM needs only 10 skill ranks in order to learn the most dangerous techniques (4 rank 1, 3 rank 2, 2 rank 3 and 1 rank 4). This could be achieved by level 2 (1st level: 2 skill levels in rank 1, 1 level in rank 2 (total of 5 DP); 2nd level: 2 levels in rank 1, 2 levels in rank 2, 2 levels in rank 3, 1 level rank 1 (13 DP). To me, this is way too quick. In my "option," you would have to be level 15 in order to learn the most hidden techniques. Really, a couple of really good attacks in MA Rank 1 would disable most lower level enemies.
On the other hand, perhaps some martial arts are easier to learn than others, and my option would only apply to the most difficult arts. The more difficult the MA, the better the critical, the higher the damage, etc. Simpler MA would cost lest but do less damage.
Heh heh, I guess thats why the system is sometimes called "Rulemaster"! :-)
George
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I see the logic in what you are saying, but on the other hand nobody think twice about a first level char giving max damage with a sword (if roling open ended) and I know that the use of a sword takes a lot of skill.
Ask anyone that have studied fencing or Kendo. :)
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Heh heh, yeah, no kidding! But thats what I like about Rolemaster; that level one warrior has a (remote) chance of taking out the dragon :-).
George
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Agreed :)
However it seems like this does not apply as soon as the warrior in question use Martial Arts. ???
It might not be realistic, but then again most of us are playing in fantasy worlds, where Magic do exist and so do Orcs, Trolls and many other creatures, so why the sudden need of realism?
I think that if you apply realism for Martial arts you have to apply it for many other fighting skills like weapon skills.
Some people would say that you can always be lucky when wielding 2-3 feet of sharp metal. True.. so use four-tier skill rank development for swords, but allow openended rolls to ignore the max damage to simulate the possibility of luck. :)
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Balhirath, I think you are under-estimating the effectiveness of A-C crits on the MA crit tables. High rolls will take out a foe, just like high A-C crits on slash, puncture and crush.
There is no reason a martial art strike should be as effective as a sword blow. A few broken bones versus a severed limb is no contest. Sword wins. Weapons SHOULD be more effective that MA.
lynn
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Like Yamma, I also think that Martial Arts are way overpowered.
Mind you, I also don't let my characters be wandering around town in plate mail without consequences.
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Balhirath, I think you are under-estimating the effectiveness of A-C crits on the MA crit tables. High rolls will take out a foe, just like high A-C crits on slash, puncture and crush.
There is no reason a martial art strike should be as effective as a sword blow. A few broken bones versus a severed limb is no contest. Sword wins. Weapons SHOULD be more effective that MA.
lynn
Hmmm I have looked through the critical tables now and yes they are quite like weapon critials. That does not bother me all that much, but I can see that it might be a problem for some.
The obvious thing to do is to just say that armor protects very well against bare handed attacks deduct 5 from criticals if the opponent is wearing leather plate, 10 if the oponent is wearing chain and 15 if the opponent is wearing metal plate.
The alternate thing is to change the attack tables for Martial Arts and that might take some work :)
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If you do that, then you should do the reverse for MA Sweeps, which are more about unbalancing a foe than hurting him directly.
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Short of a push, which is more like sweeps and throws. . . most martial arts attacks on rigid leather or plate should cause damage to the attacker. . . And an old adage I recall "Never hit someone with your fist if you have anything harder and less breakable around to hit them with instead."
Technically, according to the rules, the GM can enforce a Break Factor check whenever they want to. . . .
Now, it might tone down the high endedness of Martial Arts if the GM were to turn around and rigidly enforce the BF rules on monks.
"Ohh, looks like you missed by 10, so you hit his shield, roll break factor for your hand/foot/elbow/knee."
if I recall, the rules on BF are not to friendly to non magical weapons built out of bone. (A -20 material if I recall off the top of my head.)
So, Mike Tyson and Bruce Lee can bash heads in with their hands and feet, right up to the point where they miss an attack by the margin of shield/armor/parry and are forced to check BF. . .Which would make using M-A against armored opponants a desperation move at best except as ambush attacks, or when you've got a +200 OB.
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If Mike Tyson hits someone without gloves and wriststrapping, he's very liable to damage his hands or wrists (if I recall, he has in fact done that at least once) just hitting unarmoured foes.
Of course, he could probably kill the average person with a big punch that hit right (at least, in his prime he might).
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Yeah, it might be a little unfair to martial artists when it they are stacked up against oponents that develop weapon skills in the normal fashion. I may have to run a few tests. 5th level monster vs 5th level WM/"Adept"/Martial Artist vs 5th level fighter or something like that.
Really, when it comes to weapon techniques vs the difficulty it takes to kill with your hands/feet, I think it is much easier to imagine the ease with which someone can slash with a sword or bash with a war hammer.
George
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If I recall, he hit Mitch Green (Another boxer) in a bar dispute, broke two knuckles and sprained his wrist. . .knocking out a few teeth, broken jaw, broken cheekbone for mr green. . .so yeah, that kind of thing.
Or the video above. . .attack, missed by margin of parry, BF roll failed horribly.