Topic: Comliness, Appearance, Beauty, whatever

[arakish]

Here is an idea I had for determining Comliness, Appearance, Beauty, etc.  Not everyone will agree.  In fact, I will wager a majority will probably disagree.  However, this method could possibly be used in any version of Rolemaster.

An example I have used is Hitler.  Compare his Beauty with his Charisma.  Perhaps, he also probably had a boatload of skill ranks in Public Speaking.  I even asked people to judge Hitler's Comliness.  Very few gave him a good comliness score.

In the RAW, Comliness, Appearance, Beauty, whatever you want to call it, was determined by using Presence as a base.  However, I have always argued that Presence and Comliness are two separate attributes.  A person may have a low comliness, but still have a high presence.  Vice Versa is true also.  However, Comliness is also a very relative stat.  A human with a very low comliness may actually be comely to a Half-Orc.  Where an Elf with a very high comliness would be homely, if not terrifying, to that same Half-Orc.

Additionally, how one keeps one's appearance can have a drastic effect.  A human can have a high comliness, but his living like a true barbarian may actually make him appear homely.  A human could have a low comliness, but his living like a true aristocrat may actually make him appear more comely.

My proposal: Allow a cumlative number of d10s to determine the Comliness stat score, independently of any other stat score.  If the character is starting out young enough, this score could be increased, using the ugly duckling as an example.  My suggested maximum increase for Comliness would be 20.  However, this would be up to each individual GM.  Some persons may have a low comliness while very young (<=15), but actually become quite comely later on in life.  The table below details the number of d10 with the average score.  Remember, 1d10 averages 5.5.  Easiest method for determining a die's average score is: (#facies + 1) / 2.

# d10		Avg Score
10		55
11		60.5
12		66
13		71.5
14		77
15		82.5

What think?

rmfr

[yammahoper]

I usually pick my PC's comeliness stat, so no worries 

[Cory Magel]

In designing my own system I would separate a few stats out that are often combined.  RM has already done this with Quickness and Agility.  Quickness obviously being simply reaction times an Agility being hand-eye coordination.  However I would separate 'comeliness' in a manner that you talk about here.  Attractiveness and Presence.  For a very simplistic example, The Hulk has a low Attractiveness, but has a high Presence.  For racial differences there would simply be a modifier, likely of both.  Even the most 'beautiful' Orc is going to be ugly to a human.

I also would have a Luck stat.  Luck is what I'd use when everything hinges on random chance.  You'd roll a random luck stat and the lower it is the more points I'd give you for Talents that only can be purchased with points in that manner.  So, the "Lucky" character has just plain old dumb luck go his way more often... they'd make better gamblers for example.  The "Unlucky" character would simply have some special talents separate from the normal pool of them.

My list of stats would be...

Strength & Constitution = Physique
Quickness & Agility = Dexterity
Memory (Ess) & Wisdom (Chan) = Intelligence
Attractiveness & Presence = Appearance
Self Discipline (Chi) & Intuition (Ment) = Instinct
...and Luck

I know ten (eleven if you include Luck) is a lot of stats, but the idea is that a lot of the non-skill system applications of them would be using the combined stat off to the right.  So, you'd end up with six main stats for typical use.  I'd also probably give two pools of points to assign, separating St, Co, Qu, Ag and SD from Me, Wis, At, Pr and In and probably allow swapping points at a 2:1 cost between the two pools.

[arakish]

Thanks Corey.

I decided to go back and insert Comeliness as an eleventh stat.  Was also thinking of adding Sanity and Luck.

rmfr

[jdale]

How would you actually use Comeliness in play? Would you ever use the actual value or stat bonus directly? Or just use it to give you (as GM) a general sense of how the character looks?

In the latter case, you could just treat it as a talent or flaw, which would give you a reaction bonus/penalty in certain circumstances. Instead of making it random, that would let the player decide, as with other traits. And most people would be average.

[Cory Magel]

I decided to go back and insert Comeliness as an eleventh stat.  Was also thinking of adding Sanity and Luck.

I'd just use Self Discipline for that, maybe throw some Wisdom in too?

How would you actually use Comeliness in play? Would you ever use the actual value or stat bonus directly? Or just use it to give you (as GM) a general sense of how the character looks?

In the latter case, you could just treat it as a talent or flaw, which would give you a reaction bonus/penalty in certain circumstances. Instead of making it random, that would let the player decide, as with other traits. And most people would be average.

There are two general immediate uses that come to mind.
1. If you're considered attractive the obvious benefit would be the members of the opposite sex (and that 10% of the same sex!) might have a more favorable reaction to you.  However, if you're unattractive it would obviously have just as much chance of having the opposite effect.  Naturally both of those could also be turned around in certain circumstances.
2. The other use is typically more a GM use (although the player could use it actively to their advantage too).  If you are especially attractive or particularly ugly you're probably going to stick in peoples minds better.  Now, if you're in some kind of organization and have a 'favorable' reputation and people more easily recognize you this could be a good thing.  When you show up you don't need to ask for your wine and caviar, it's just shows without having to ask.  On the other hand, if you just robbed a bank without a disguise, it might be very bad.

Seduction, public speaking, diplomacy, leadership, acting... basically it impacts how others react to and how well they remember you, good or bad.  If you're a really scary (ugly) looking dude, your interrogations might actually be easier.

[jdale]

Agreed with all those applications. Do they need a stat? Is a 70 enough to have a meaningful effect? Do you distinguish between a PC with 70 and one with 75?

[intothatdarkness]

I remain unconvinced that it actually needs a stat. I also don't care for luck as a stat. I tend to use it more in the form of points that characters can spend.

[Cory Magel]

Agreed with all those applications. Do they need a stat? Is a 70 enough to have a meaningful effect? Do you distinguish between a PC with 70 and one with 75?

As applied to skills, why would you treat it any differently than Strength?  As for the 'memorable' effect I suppose it would basically become a GM call... I'd probably say once it was in the 90's you'd start really sticking in peoples minds.

For Luck, I think it just adds some fun randomness into the game.  It's also possible for the to use it as an excuse But, I wouldn't have you assign points to luck when building a character, that stat would be a roll of the dice.

[yammahoper]

I often use x1 to x5 Ap stat mod as a bonus or penalty for influence rolls. 

If AP is rolled for, x3 Pr mod +d100.  Every five points above 100 adds one to the stat ( a modified roll of 124 would result in a 104 Ap ).

In my current campaign, Skal the Mentalist Paladin has Lecherous for a flaw.  His very high Ap brings him constant attention from the opposite sex and interesting some encounters (including one unwanted pregnancy and one unknown pregnancy, the full impact yet to be revealed; think Morganna and Mordred ).

[Cory Magel]

For Luck, I think it just adds some fun randomness into the game.  It's also possible for the to use it as an excuse But, I wouldn't have you assign points to luck when building a character, that stat would be a roll of the dice.

Weird, I lost some text in there somehow.  I meant: It's also possible for the GM to use it as an excuse to get the party into or out of trouble in some situations.

[arakish]

How would you actually use Comeliness in play? Would you ever use the actual value or stat bonus directly? Or just use it to give you (as GM) a general sense of how the character looks?

In the latter case, you could just treat it as a talent or flaw, which would give you a reaction bonus/penalty in certain circumstances. Instead of making it random, that would let the player decide, as with other traits. And most people would be average.

I tend to use Presence, Empathy, and Comeliness for the social and influence skills.

I decided to go back and insert Comeliness as an eleventh stat.  Was also thinking of adding Sanity and Luck.

I'd just use Self Discipline for that, maybe throw some Wisdom in too?

Yep.  As said, I was thinking of adding Sanity and Luck.  However, most often, I use Fate Points in place of Luck.  Sanity could be imitated using Self Discipline and Reasoning, or similar.

There are two general immediate uses that come to mind.
1. If you're considered attractive the obvious benefit would be the members of the opposite sex (and that 10% of the same sex!) might have a more favorable reaction to you.  However, if you're unattractive it would obviously have just as much chance of having the opposite effect.  Naturally both of those could also be turned around in certain circumstances.
2. The other use is typically more a GM use (although the player could use it actively to their advantage too).  If you are especially attractive or particularly ugly you're probably going to stick in peoples minds better.  Now, if you're in some kind of organization and have a 'favorable' reputation and people more easily recognize you this could be a good thing.  When you show up you don't need to ask for your wine and caviar, it's just shows without having to ask.  On the other hand, if you just robbed a bank without a disguise, it might be very bad.

Seduction, public speaking, diplomacy, leadership, acting... basically it impacts how others react to and how well they remember you, good or bad.  If you're a really scary (ugly) looking dude, your interrogations might actually be easier.

All of that also.


I have always felt that Presence and Comeliness ARE two separate and different stats.

Presence (Pr) – Presence is a sense of self and the ability to project your personality to affect or control others are the principal elements of a character’s presence.

Nothing in there about your comeliness or homeliness.  When I was still a kid and GMed DnD, I always added Comeliness as a seventh stat.  I always argued that Charisma could not, should not, be used to determine a character's sense of self and the ability to project your personality to affect or control others AND the character's attractiveness/repulsiveness.  I have always said that to do so was STUPID.  Basically, according to DnD, those idiots are saying that a character with a high Presence was also unbelievably beautiful.  That is STUPID.  A person can be ugly, yet have a high Presence.

Thus, I have always felt that Comeliness had to be a separate stat from Presence.  Yes, a person could have a high Presence and a high Comeliness.  Vice versa is always true.  However, a person could have a low Comeliness, yet have a high Presence.  Obversely, a person could have a high Comeliness, yet have a low Presence.  This is the reasoning I use that Comeliness should not use Presence as a base.  A person with a high Presence is also going to have a high Comeliness (at least the potential for such exists).  Obversely, a person with a low Presence will also have a low Comeliness (again, the potential for such exists).

For me, Presence and Comeliness are completely different and separate stats.

rmfr

[jdale]

I often use x1 to x5 Ap stat mod as a bonus or penalty for influence rolls. 

x5 would mean it has more impact than Presence. I can see that there are times when your appearance will matter more (e.g. you don't have a chance to open your mouth) but I wouldn't think the times you are using Influence skills would be those times.

[Cory Magel]

For me Presence does partially play into appearance aside from how strictly attractive one is.  The example I gave a while back, that the Incredible Hulk has a terrible 'comeliness' (what I called 'attractiveness') yet still unarguably has 'presence' without having to say a word, applies well here.  Comeliness is strictly beauty or ugliness.  Presence is how well spoken you are, however it also (imo) encompasses a certain 'aura' whether that be one of calm, intimidation, or just outright fear.  Darth Vader has Presence without having to say a word.  The same can be said for various characters, for example the 'Dark Knight' version of Batman has more Presence than the goodie-two-shoes version of Batman.

[yammahoper]

I often use x1 to x5 Ap stat mod as a bonus or penalty for influence rolls. 

x5 would mean it has more impact than Presence. I can see that there are times when your appearance will matter more (e.g. you don't have a chance to open your mouth) but I wouldn't think the times you are using Influence skills would be those times.

x5 is used when flaws require it.  For example, I routinely apply a penalty to rr or mnv when a lecherous PC tries to resist the charms of the opposite sex.  The assumption being the more attractive they are, the less likely the lecher can resist pursuit or seduction.

tomato tomatoe.

[dkenady]

My group has always separated Comliness and Presence.
Comliness is a Physical attribute
Presence is a Mental Attribute.
How many people have been around an attractive person and as soon as they opened their mouth were instantly turned off?  High Appearance, Low Personality.

As for game play, you could use it in conjunction with Public Speaking, Interrogation, Duping and especially Seduction.  As well as instant reaction

[Witchking20k]

sum 2D10 *5  Elves +20, Highmen +10, Dwarfs -10

[Terisonen]

Used a D100 + D100 for potential (you're usually falling into the 75/+5 Range) and add the Presence Bonus. That's for PC. You never have to use a Stat Bonus for the villain (I mean, the really bad guy) who must live through you description. However, whe never use the Stat Comeliness, just a measure between PC 

That can give in the best of case 101 Comeliness + 103 Presence +20 Bonus for certain races, to a Maximum total net of +161 (one on 10.000, + Background + races -ie High Elves- ). This Stat can go up not into the 1-103 range, and a PC with à high Presence can not be below, say 20.

[BeggarKing (Thomas)]

I leave comeliness/beauty out altogether, and let players own their character's physical descriptions. I haven't hit anything in play that would require a stat for this sort of thing that couldn't be worked out with presence or skills.

I would probably use "unusually beautiful" talent/background option that would give a bonus to presence, social skills, or charm like spell effects, but don't see the need for another stat.