Author Topic: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?  (Read 6883 times)

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Offline Ancient of Days

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2013, 05:31:42 PM »
in the 1st Edition DMG page 61, Gygax discusses the idea of heroic combat versus realistic simulation combat:
"Combat is divided into 1 minute period melee rounds, or simply rounds, in
order to have reasonably manageable combat. "Manageable" applies
both to the actions of the combatants and to the actual refereeing of such
melees. It would be no great task to devise an elaborate set of rules for
highly complex individual combats with rounds of but a few seconds
length. It is not in the best interests of an adventure game, however, to
delve too deeply into cut and thrust, parry and riposte. The location of a hit
or wound, the sort of damage done, sprains, breaks, and dislocations are
not the stuff of heroic fantasy. The reasons for this are manifold.
As has been detailed, hit points are not actually o measure of physical
damage, by and large, as far as characters (and some other creatures as
well) are concerned. Therefore, the location of hits and the type of
damage caused are not germane to them. While this is not true with
respect to most monsters, it is neither necessary nor particularly useful. Lest
some purist immediately object, consider the many charts and tables
necessary to handle this sort of detail, and then think about how area
effect spells would work. In like manner, consider all of the nasty things
which face adventurers as the rules stand. Are crippling disabilities and
yet more ways to meet instant death desirable in an open-ended, episodic
game where participants seek to identify with lovingly detailed and
developed player-character personae? Not likely! Certain death is as undesirable
as a give-away campaign. Combat is a common pursuit in the
vast majority of adventures, and the participants in the campaign deserve
a chance to exercise intelligent choice during such confrontations. As hit
points dwindle they can opt to break off the encounter and attempt to flee.
With complex combat systems which stress so-called realism and feature
hit location, special damage, and so on, either this option is severely
limited or the rules are highly slanted towards favoring the player
characters at the expense of their opponents. (Such rules as double
damage and critical hits must cut both ways ~ in which case the life
expectancy of player characters will be shortened considerably - or the
monsters are being grossly misrepresented and unfairly treated by the
system. I am certain you can think of many other such rules.)
"


Gygax, G. (1979). Dungeon Masters Guide. Random House, Inc.: New York, NY
Of two equivalent theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simplest one is to be preferred.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2013, 06:29:40 PM »
Exactly why I use Fate Points.  Random, meaningless deaths are no fun... but I still want some danger in the fight.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2013, 07:08:39 PM »
Quote
Certain death is as undesirable as a give-away campaign.

Sure. But crits hardly make it certain, they just make the boundary conditions of the combat more likely to change drastically in any given combat round. In other words, instead of "the fighter is down, we need to be out of here within a few rounds or we'll lose him, and maybe be in danger of losing our own lives as well," it becomes "the fighter is SNP, we need to bug out RIGHT NOW."

A lucky man is a man who knows what can safely be left to chance.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2013, 12:11:16 AM »
in the 1st Edition DMG page 61, Gygax discusses the idea of heroic combat versus realistic simulation combat:
"It would be no great task to devise an elaborate set of rules for
highly complex individual combats with rounds of but a few seconds
length."
I love you Gary, but you are wrong here.

"In like manner, consider all of the nasty things
which face adventurers as the rules stand. Are crippling disabilities and
yet more ways to meet instant death desirable in an open-ended, episodic
game where participants seek to identify with lovingly detailed and
developed player-character personae? Not likely! Certain death is as undesirable
as a give-away campaign. Combat is a common pursuit in the
vast majority of adventures, and the participants in the campaign deserve
a chance to exercise intelligent choice during such confrontations. As hit
points dwindle they can opt to break off the encounter and attempt to flee.
With complex combat systems which stress so-called realism and feature
hit location, special damage, and so on, either this option is severely
limited or the rules are highly slanted towards favoring the player
characters at the expense of their opponents. (Such rules as double
damage and critical hits must cut both ways ~ in which case the life
expectancy of player characters will be shortened considerably - or the
monsters are being grossly misrepresented and unfairly treated by the
system. I am certain you can think of many other such rules.)
"


Gygax, G. (1979). Dungeon Masters Guide. Random House, Inc.: New York, NY
I find this funny, as Gary was known as a killer GM, from what I have heard anyway. You would think he would be all for systems that included more and faster ways in which PCs could be dispatched.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline VladD

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2013, 01:02:48 AM »
Vlad, in the Wiki entry you might want to not that Rolemaster criticals can result in instant death. I know you noted that they can result in lost limbs and internal organs destroyed, which we might assume would cause death, but you might want to make it more clear that even instant death is a possibility. That's what to me really separates the RM critical hit from the others.

The beauty of wiki's is that you might change the entry to your liking and after many changes the entry will be general consensus of what is right. Please, be my guest and add that part in your own words. I gave it my definition, you add yours!
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Offline Moriarty

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2013, 05:26:52 AM »
Found these on G+. I don't know what game thay are for, but I would assume D&D.
http://okumarts.tumblr.com/post/61365822947/critical-hit-charts-have-long-been-a-staple-in?utm_content=buffer6f6e3&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=Buffer
Presumably from 1982, but I have no way to verify that.
...the way average posters like Moriarty read it.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2013, 12:15:50 PM »
Very likely, I will compare them with the ones from Dragon magazine to see if they line up. From just a quick look, they do seem similar.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline Terry K. Amthor

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2013, 12:25:44 AM »
Just putting in my 2 cents, as I was in Pete Fenlon's Middle-earth campaign starting in 1976, he and Kurt Fischer and Coleman Charlton had been developing the attack and critical tables starting around then. The first criticals were very basic, just a few options typed out, but soon they grew into what eventually came out in Arms Law. As far as I know, they came up with the idea completely on their own, because the idea of wearing someone down with hit points was too dull. But then of course, we had to develop a whole new system for healing all those messy criticals...

(And as another point of trivia, those attack tables were computer generated on UVa computers using punch-cards! Oh, technology.)
Terry K. Amthor
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Eidolon Studio Art Director


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
-- Clarke's First Law.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2013, 12:06:27 PM »
As far as I know, they came up with the idea completely on their own
Intelligent people working within the same general topic will often come up with similar results, so I have no doubt it was an idea that grew out of their own and while I've never seen a critical hit system even approaching RM's from pre-80's I don't doubt others came up with the same idea.  Heck, our group was using a 20 result critical table with D&D before we started implementing early RM Critical hit tables.

Quote
because the idea of wearing someone down with hit points was too dull.
That is one of the primary reasons we moved from D&D to RM as a full system eventually.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline VladD

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2013, 05:16:03 PM »
I agree with Cory about ideas, but those are some heavy 2 cents, Terry. Good that some of the old guard still wander these boards.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2013, 12:06:43 PM »
Very likely, I will compare them with the ones from Dragon magazine to see if they line up. From just a quick look, they do seem similar.
Looking at them a little closer makes it obvious that they are very similar, so likely they have a similar origin - like one is the 'revised' version of the other, or something like that.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline Terry K. Amthor

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2013, 08:20:07 PM »
I agree with Cory about ideas, but those are some heavy 2 cents, Terry. Good that some of the old guard still wander these boards.

Hah well thanks, it's fun to remember back then... and how the campaign was sort of an ongoing playtest environment. And the first Fumble tables (also typed) featuring the 'unseen imaginary deceased turtle.' Good times.

And I guess it's also important to consider that back then communication was not like it is today. As some have mentioned, publishing took months, and of course there was nothing like the internet, so indeed people could have developed ideas independently; much more likely than getting ideas from others.
Terry K. Amthor
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Eidolon Studio Art Director


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
-- Clarke's First Law.

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2013, 09:00:46 PM »
... and how the campaign was sort of an ongoing playtest environment.

For myself, I tend to like those the best.
You put your left foot in, you put your left foot out... Traditional Somatic Components
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Offline Terry K. Amthor

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2013, 09:14:58 PM »
... and how the campaign was sort of an ongoing playtest environment.

For myself, I tend to like those the best.

I remember when we were testing Spell Law, and Pete was first testing spells with Arms Law like attacks and criticals, and there was a spell called an Air Bolt, used by an NPC enemy. There was much death and destruction, and I think we actually had to replay that scenario because it was so overpowered compared to other attacks.

But of course, with the Arms Law weapons becoming so powerful, casting an old school D&D fireball with a few hit dice just didn't stack up, so Spell Law Spells were developed fairly soon afterwards.  Hehe I just dug out my 2nd edition Spell Law that has all the criticals still hand-written by Pete, and the attack tables we typed out on a correcting Selectric® typewriter. I wonder if I still have the old three books somewhere. Good times...
Terry K. Amthor
Shadow World Author, Rolemaster & SpaceMaster Co-Designer, ICE co-founder.
Eidolon Studio Art Director


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
-- Clarke's First Law.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2013, 01:00:24 AM »
Hehe I just dug out my 2nd edition Spell Law that has all the criticals still hand-written by Pete, and the attack tables we typed out on a correcting Selectric® typewriter. I wonder if I still have the old three books somewhere. Good times...
That is some awesome gaming memorabilia. If you are ever really strapped for cash, I imagine you could sell those for a pretty penny (or even 2).
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline Terry K. Amthor

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2013, 01:14:09 AM »
Hehe I just dug out my 2nd edition Spell Law that has all the criticals still hand-written by Pete, and the attack tables we typed out on a correcting Selectric® typewriter. I wonder if I still have the old three books somewhere. Good times...
That is some awesome gaming memorabilia. If you are ever really strapped for cash, I imagine you could sell those for a pretty penny (or even 2).

It so happens that I could use some cash (money is tight here at Eidolon Studio), so I really should go through all my old books. Though I sold a Court of Ardor for over $400 a few years ago and only got $100 for my last spare one recently, so maybe the collector market is soft. I am pretty sure I have the Spell Law books and maybe the charts somewhere, but that box is long gone (I thought that art was ugly, not like Gail's for the 2nd Ed book, I have, which seems to be just all the books bound together).
Terry K. Amthor
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Eidolon Studio Art Director


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
-- Clarke's First Law.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2013, 01:21:25 AM »
The market is fickle.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline NuSoardGraphite

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2013, 08:32:32 AM »
i started playing D&D around 1983.  We added "Critical hits" (and fumbles) into our games.  I do remember seeing a Dragon magazine article about critical hits, though i think we added them before seeing that article.  it may be that the individual who claimed that D&D added critical hits before Rolemaster existed may have been thinking of the prevalence of gaming groups in the early days of D&D that HOUSE RULED crits into their games.

it wasn't until 1989 that i encountered Rolemaster (I grew up in a very small town, with no game or comic book store.  All of my games i acquired were through mail order) when i finally did encounter Rolemaster, I dropped D&D like a bad habit and never looked back...

Offline VladD

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2013, 10:33:53 AM »
Why I liked Terry's comment so much is because Pete Fenlon apparently added crits to D&D as early as 1976: that is WAY before any articles came out in Dragon. The idea probably sprouted in people's minds at the same time, as is often the case (printing press in Western world, Telegraph, Telephone), but I think Pete and his group were certainly the first to implement and make commercially available their system, they have been play-testing for such a long time (5-6 years at that time).
If ICE can indeed support such a claim, it would be great marketing material for RMU.
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Offline Terry K. Amthor

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Re: 'Creators of the Critical Hit'?
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2013, 09:28:25 PM »
Just to clarify (or obfuscate), I started playing in 1976, and I was a starry-eyed teenager (also overwhelmed with being a first-year college student), and a lot of things were going on with the game. I had never heard of D&D before (but of course I had read Tolkien), and when a fellow first year friend told me about it, I thought it sounded kind of lame. But she got me to go, and they let me roll up a character (my friend and I were easily the youngest of this group) and it did not take long before I was sucked in. However I was not privy to all the details right away.

My first character was Agonar, and in 1976, we were mostly playing D&D, though Pete and Kurt had developed the Vog Mur adventure, and I am pretty sure the advanced attack/crit tables were in the works. One thing we ran into was the idea that when you went over your hits, you died, which they corrected with something called a 'Baileyize' named after a previous DM, Richard Bailey. If you went over, you could make a saving throw (old-school terminology!) and not die but just be at max hits. Somewhere along the line came the idea of hits=unconscious, then hits+CO being head from concussion, because the Arms Law weapons were delivering so many hits. In our first meeting with Shards, Agonar Baileyized 4x. Ouch.

I'm not sure how much the current ICE folks would care to pursue such a claim but of course I'm still on friendly terms with Pete and Coleman and I could ask for clarification.
Terry K. Amthor
Shadow World Author, Rolemaster & SpaceMaster Co-Designer, ICE co-founder.
Eidolon Studio Art Director


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
-- Clarke's First Law.